C&S Landscape Shots

[Jeff Young]

Next time we also want a picture of you up the tree. ;)

[Jim Courtney]

Daniel,

This is a view of Pine Grove and the coaling chute that I've never seen before.

Could you post a larger view of the B&W photo, of higher resolution if possible?

Also do you have a reference source for the photo and a date?  I'm guessing late 'teens to early 1920s, given the freight car lettering, the paint schemes on the railroad buildings and the trestle length on the coaling chutes. The long coaling platform to the east of the coaling chute is still present, but looks empty.  

Thanks,

Jim

[Daniel Frauenhoff]

Hey Jim,

This view of Pine Grove comes from the George Diary, Box 2, Page 299. The date is either 1913 or 1914.

Here's the best I can do, my photograph is a reference photo I took by hand so it is quite blurry at high resolutions. The white gloves I was wearing are causing the reflections in the photograph but I tried to reduce that effect.



I don't know if the DPL provides prints of non-digitized images but that would be the best bet for getting a better quality image. I have been meaning to ask them since I decided to use this photograph for my then and now pairs.

Daniel

[Jim Courtney]

Fascinating photo!

It also adds more information to a topic dear to my heart, the coal chutes at Pine and specifically when they were rebuilt from the original 4 chutes of 1890, with covered storage bin, to the 6 chute configuration of later years. See http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/The-C-amp-S-Coal-Chutes-Pine-Como-Dickey-Pitkin-and-almost-Breckenridge-td4269.html

Two views of the Pine coal chutes c1908-10:


John Halliman Collection, in the Klingers’ Platte Canon Memories . . . , page 115. Photo circa 1908-10.



http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/77809/rec/13
McClure photo, c1908-10.

I had assumed the rebuilding from 4 to 6 chutes occurred in 1920-21 to accommodate the larger Brooks engines from the DB&W.

But if this photo is from the George Diary c1913-14, then the rebuilding must have occurred earlier:  The coal trestle seems longer to the right of the bins (four stringer lengths instead of three), the bins seem longer, and there appears to be the faint lines of the railing around the bins against the depot roof, after the roof of the storage bins was removed:

Consider the earlier photo cropped and re-framed to roughly mach the image from the George diary:




Compare with your photo (this may be an example of a "then and then" photo set!).



George diary, c 1913-14.


What do ya'll think?  Are the two structures different?

And I think I can make out a helper engine, spotted on the west leg of the wye near the ash pit, behind Chris's favorite outhouse with window on the end!

And in Daniel's photo, the large Hotel to the left seems to have burned down . . .

Daniel, were there any other photos of Pine in the George collection at DPL?

Thanks again, you made my Saturday working in the hospital a great day!.

Jim

[Jeff Young]

I count 7 more bents in the structure in Daniel’s image.  Definitely enlarged.

[Daniel Frauenhoff]

Searching my reference photos and index I didn't find any other views of Pine. The vast majority of photographs are between South Platte and Buffalo. Klinger's Platte Canon Memories gives a very good idea of the items contained in the diary.

Nonetheless, the photos in the diary would be a priceless addition to the digital collections if the DPL ever got around to them. I'm sure there are many small details here and there which could pin down some of the long standing questions on this portion of the line; especially since they can all be reliably dated within a few days. (My reference photo of Pine didn't quite catch the date enscribed on the page.)

Daniel

[Jim Courtney]

I think 1913-14 is a pretty good estimate of the George photo, I think her earliest view was in 1912 in the Klingers' book.

Given that the light and dark trim building paint scheme showed up around 1908, there is probably only 4-6 years difference between the two photos.

Still, a lot has changed, the hotel gone, new or remodeled houses, and several structures seem to have gotton a new coat of paint.

This photo, also from the Klingers' book, seems perhaps in between the two views above:



I looks to me as if the roof on the coal bins is gone and the trestle framing is closer to that of the George photo. But some of the foreground dwellings haven't yet been remodeled or had their new paint job.

Jim

[Keith Hayes]

Jim, the photographer's position in each case appears to be very close, judging from the relative position of buildings. Yes, the trestle looks longer.

[Chris Walker]

Daniel Frauenhoff wrote

Nice comparison Chris. I've utilized Google Earth many times to scout locations before hand. Its also useful for the modern views that sit on the highway as I can't run out onto the road with my camera and tripod to try and line up a shot.

Daniel

Thanks Daniel,

that photo since I first laid eyes on it, had me thinking it was taken at the curve approach to Forks Creek just before the now abandoned Hwy 119 Tunnel, wow was I wrong!  I've made the Clear Creek pilgramage on every trip now since 1982 but since '92 I haven't dared stop for pictures on that road.  I wouldn't even try for a Highway line up shot haha!  At least with modern tech I can from here  and I envy you being able to get where you can.  Great thread too!

[usairman737]

Looks like the little "store" across the track from the end of the dock (with two front windows and the door at the end) is still there, but with multiple signage over the years.  Got to visit that next time I'm in the area.

Gerry

[Jim Courtney]

Amazing isn't it, one wonders what other bits of information lie in the DPL storage areas, never digitalized.

So while Daniel's new photo of Pine Grove is fascinating, it poses a new dilemma for me -- if I'm modeling summer 1909, do I build a coal chute with 4 bins or 6 bins?  I thought that issue had been solved, 4 bins is the current plan. But it's now obvious that the structure had been enlarged by 1913-1914.

Why would the CB&Q management spend the money on new chute construction after 1910, when the South Park division had been dismembered and they were trying to abandon service over Boreas? The big Brooks engines wouldn't show up until 1921.

It is beginning to seem to me that the remodeling of the chutes took place earlier, while the lines to Gunnison and Leadville were still in full swing, perhaps as early as 1905-09. I thought the earlier photos were no earlier than 1908 because of the repainted railroad buildings, but that date is derived from one written reference that the Como depot and dispatcher's office were repainted "gray with green trim" in that year. Perhaps, the new scheme was adopted earlier, under the Trumbull management.

And the Trumbull management was busy building new chutes of 6 to 12 bins between 1900 and 1902, at Schwanders, Pitkin and Dickey. Why not enlarge the chutes at Pine, on the trunk of the South Park "tree", at the same time?

Perhaps I should just build the chutes per Joe Crea's plans with the 6 bins / open top with railing and be done with it -- Mike Trent's open top coal chutes sure look great.

Again, this 'not-ready-to-run history" is sometimes hard!  Anyone have any thoughts and wish to opine??

[Jim Courtney]

To better try to date the sequence of three photos of Pine Grove:

Do any of you Platte Canon scholars know when the hotel at Pine burned down? South Park?

Have any of you depot restoration folks seen written C&S records as to when the "grey and green trim" scheme was officially adopted as a standard by the railroad?

And Daniel, is there a specific office name at DPL where the George Diary photos are located? Any contact name or phone number that might allow me to inquire about obtaining prints? Is the collection only prints, or do they also have Ms. George's negatives as well?

Thanks, now I can't stop obsessing about this!

Jim

[Daniel Frauenhoff]

Jim,

The George Diary is located at the Denver Public Library Western History Collection. The call # and other specifics are on the outline I posted in the Ferndale thread. Not sure about ordering prints from them as I haven't done it before but I bet they would direct you to the right place by calling the main desk there. No negatives are in the possession of DPL to my knowledge so any print would be from a scan of the original.

Daniel

[Keith Hayes]

It is. We were just there a couple weeks ago after a  hike near Buffalo. Pine Grove seems like it would have been a nice assignment.

[Keith Hayes]

Jim, you are thinking too hard. All the other coal docks are at the base of steep grades. Those sites seem like first priority for improvement by Trumbull. Pine Grove is in relatively flat territory, but still the line is something of a roller coaster. Also, in the last year's, four engine freight were common leaving Denver to satisfy Climax's demand for material. Earlier, shorter more frequent runs filled the bill, but still each locomotive needed to fill it's tender. Pine Grove was not a priority,  but it was still important and they did it last for that reason.

That is my story and I am sticking to it till Darrell tells me I am full of hooey.

FYI, have you all considered the math of coal cars to enginedo? I figure a coal is worth 2-3 tenders of coal, so two coals would fill 6 bins. If each bin fills one tender, than every six coal services requires another two carload. Put another way, each train had to pull about a carload of coal to equal what would be consumed in a Denver-Leadville trip.

No wonder the railroad was destined to be abandoned. 🤔

[Jeff Young]

Herald Democrat, May 19, 1906:

[Robert McFarland]

Was the owner related to the Herr of Herr-Rubicon?

[Alex Hois]

Nice work, Daniel!
The trestle in Daniel's picture isn't much longer than the old one, if you compare it to the background buildings.
Also, if I compare the width of 2 trestle spans to the width of the store at the end of the trestle it looks like they're set tighter in the bigger structure.
To me it looks like a complete rebuild. Did it burn down?
Alex

[Jim Courtney]

Jeff, sorry for the tardy response, I got waylaid this week by a summer virus.

Your news clipping is a great piece of detective work and now gives me a No-later-than-date of May 1906 for the two early photos that I posted of Pine, with the original coal chutes. Given the appearance of the mountains and river in both of the early photos, they were likely taken in the summer of 1905, perhaps earlier, certainly not as late as 1910, which was my earlier assumption.

Due to the presence of the hotel at Pine in the two photos, we know know for certain that the grey and green depot scheme was in common use by 1906.

During the past week I've done a little reading, and found in the Klingers' Platte Canon Memories . . .  this quote from the Jefferson County Graphic concerning the depot at Pine: May 9, 1908 -- Our depot has received a new coat of paint and looks much better. (Colors not specified).

Since we now know that the grey and green scheme was in place prior to Spring, 1906, this new paint job of May, 1908, could not represent the introduction of the new paint scheme, rather a repainting of that scheme.  Perhaps you folks who live in Colorado can tell me how often a wooden structure in the Colorado mountains requires repainting to look tidy; every 5 years? every 7 years?

My point is, the grey and green depot scheme may well have been introduced in the first few years of the C&S, perhaps 1900-1903, when the Trumbull management was busy with property improvements and painting out any reminder of the prior UP management of the South Park line.

Consider this McClure photo of Buffalo, the next station to the east  of Pine:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/78093/rec/483


The depot appears freshly painted, the two boxcars at the stone warehouse are both painted in the 1900 "Colorado Road" scheme. They appear to be a 26' Litchfield car on the right and a 27' UP-built car on the left.  The photo could date from as early as 1900 to 1907, when the new boxcar construction began to make these cars surplus.

So I'm beginning to think that the two early photos of the original Pine coal chutes are much earlier, perhaps 1900-1903, which gets us back to the time frame of new coal chute construction at the other sites.

I agree with Keith, that the Pine chutes were probably last to be rebuilt to 6 chutes, because gravity coaling via the original 4 coal chutes was available for mainline trains, while helpers could be coaled by shovel from the long coal platform between assignments.

I also agree with Alex, that the enlarged bins in Daniel's posting of the George photo c1913-14, look like new construction, perhaps recycling some components from the original 1890 structure:  Comparing the two structures in the before and after photos, the enlarged 6-bins appear to have migrated to the east (right) 50-100 feet, the approach trestle is longer, as is the trestle for holding loaded cars to the right of the bins.

I hope ya'll don't find all this boring--these photos and discussion have been extremely useful to me.  I now think that the Pine chutes were rebuilt to their final configuration much earlier, perhaps c.1902-1903, not as late as 1920, as I had assumed. That means that Joe Crea's plans can be used directly for any model of that structure in 1909.

Thanks for all the participation and help!