C&S 8242: The Automobile Car

[ComoDepot]

This may well be a stupid question but I can not think of an answer.

How did they load/unload? I can not think of an unloading dock for end on use. There may well have been such facilities in Denver, but elsewhere?

[John Greenly]

That's a good question!

I've been wondering about that too.  The floor of the boxcar is 3 ft above the railhead,  and I'm imagining a simple ramp made of two hefty planks,  one on each side of the coupler block and coming to ground just outside the rails.  8 ft long would be steep but probably workable, 10 ft would be better.  Maybe each with a piece of iron plate bolted to the top end, projecting out and bent to lie flat on the car floor and hold them in place?  

The arrival of a new automobile on the train would have been quite an event.  Maybe somebody snapped a picture of the unloading.  If you guys didn't already know every single photo ever taken of the C&S, I'd have hope for that!

cheers,
John

[ComoDepot]

Something like that would have to be in or on the car presumably.

[Jim Courtney]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/35392828346/in/album-72157649155982802/


Photo from the AC&F Builder's photo album in the Barriger Library: https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/albums/72157649155982802

Note "Leased" in small lettering just below the "R" of "Car". The CM "button" lettering seems similar to the later C&S "button" herald. Also note the narrow rib Murphy roof, with the little side tabs, like on the C&S boxcars of 1909-10. Lots of "family" characteristics.


In Narrow Gauge Pictorial VIII, Derrell Poole relates:

"In 1911, American Car and Foundry had built an automobile car for the Colorado Midland. This car, number 6999, belonged to an automobile dealership in Leadville, but was presented to the Colorado Midland for their use, so long as this dealership could use the car anytime it needed. A similar arrangement may have existed with the Colorado & Southern. Only one (C&S) car was on hand at anytime."


So it is possible that any loading of the C&S auto cars 7571, later 8242, occurred in Leadville, not Denver.

I can imagine new model T's arriving at Leadville, say in a P&LE auto car, then transferred to either the CM auto car for destinations of the dealership's customers on the standard gauge (ie. Buena Vista, Basalt, Glennwood Springs, Aspen); or transferred into C&S 8242 for customers on narrow gauge stations (Kokomo, Breckenridge, Dillon, etc.).  Unloading ramps would have to be carried in the car, as Como Depot suggests.

I wonder if Dr. Stears has built an O scale model of CM 6999??

[Jim Courtney]

The arrival of a new automobile on the train would have been quite an event.  Maybe somebody snapped a picture of the unloading.


I actually found a photo of the Colorado Midland car being unloaded at Rifle!

(Google can be your friend)





The CM car was big enough to be unloaded from the side, the end door not always used. Wonder if a model T could be loaded through the side door of C&S 8242?? Looks like simple planks were employed as a ramp.

We forget how skinny early tires were, looks like 2 x 10's would suffice.



Both: http://largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/21561/interesting-case-wallis-tractor-boxcar


Wonder if SP can date the year models of the cars being unloaded at Rifle??


End loading/unloading of C&S 8242 was undoubtedly similar.  The the D&RG at Durango had a designated end loading car:

https://ngtrainpics.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/RD002-D-RGW-Durango-2/G0000imkd_D.sNo4/I0000ZkjCyVs4lHM/C0000Vd2qoA2MbNU



If automobile shipping on the C&S narrow gauge truly was centered out of the Leadville dealership, as Derrell Poole suggests, perhaps Keith could come up with a C&S version of this nifty little device.

[Jeff Young]

The D&RG had a loading/unloading trolley with its own ramps:

[Bill Uffelman]

Looks like the driver side wheel on the car being loaded into the Midland box car is not on a plank plus the planks don't look very wide. 

Bill Uffelman

On Thursday, January 24, 2019, 11:38:38 AM PST, Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I actually found a photo of the Colorado Midland car being unloaded at Rifle!

(Google can be your friend)





The CM car was big enough to be unloaded from the side, the end door not always used. Wonder if a model T could be loaded through the side door of C&S 8242?? Looks like simple planks were employed as a ramp.

We forget how skinny early tires were, looks like 2 x 10's would suffice.




Both: http://largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/21561/interesting-case-wallis-tractor-boxcar

Wonder if SP can date the year models of the cars being unloaded at Rifle??

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NAML

[Jim Courtney]

This is the highest resolution scan (4800 dbi) of the 8242 photo I can make -- my computer doesn't have enough RAM to go any further:




End:




Latch detail:




Don't think there is any more info hiding in this photo.  I suspect Maxwell's contact print is from the negative of a photo of Thode's print, not Thode's original negative.

[Jim Courtney]

I think you're right, Bill.

Perhaps this isn't a "posed" photo, rather a documentation for the car dealer, as to how his new car was damaged at Rifle, after the two guys standing next to it drove the car off the plank ramp.

Wonder if there were "detail" photos, lost to history, like an auto insurance claims adjuster might make?

[Bill Uffelman]

At first I thought they were using the boards as levers to pick the car up and roll it in but that did not make a lot of sense. 

Those cars did not weigh much --certainly no more that a high school buddy's Fiat that always wound up on top of snow piles after the plowing when 4 of us would pick it up and put it there as we left work at the local hobby shop in the early 1960s.

Bill Uffelman

On Thursday, January 24, 2019, 1:46:47 PM PST, Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think you're right, Bill.

Perhaps this isn't a "posed" photo, rather a documentation for the car dealer, as to how his new car was damaged at Rifle, after the two guys standing next to it drove the car off the plank ramp.

Wonder if there were 'detail" photos, lost to history, like an auto insurance claims adjuster might make?

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[South Park]

  The Model T last had a brass radiator for the 1916 model year,
so the earliest possibility is late 1908 and the latest would be the
summer of 1916.  There are guys who can tell by rivet positions
and other micro-details EXACTLY when a T was made, to within
weeks or months.  My interest and time in the "hobby" have yet to
develop this level of expertise.

[John Greenly]

Great photos Jim!

an answer to your question:  a model T could not go in the side door of a narrow gauge car.  The T was over 5 ft wide across the wheel hubs and the boxcar door is only 4' 8".  So even without fenders and running boards, as in your photo,  they were too wide. But it's even worse than that- the shortest T that I can find was 10 ft long,  so it wouldn't fit in the width of the car and would have to angle in through the side doorway.  Definitely no go.

John

[South Park]

  OK, I finally remembered to measure the truck.

  The widest part of the truck is across the front wheel hubs, at 69 inches.
As the TT uses the same parts for this as the T's, this would be a common
width for most, if not all Model T's.

  The TT would be longer than any T, so this may be an irrelevant measurement,
but with an unmodified frame (many were extended to accomodate aux. transmissions
or special beds, or both) and a stock, factory flatbed, mounted as it was from the factory,
it measures out for length at 189 inches, or 15 feet, 9 inches.

  As many are not familiar with the letter designations, the T was the light framed
vehicle made in a myriad of body styles, including light trucks.  They were made
from model year 1909 to model year 1927.  Market demand for a heavier version
in the teens caused Henry to introduce the TT (ton truck) in 1918.  From 1918 to
1922, all TT's were sold as bare chassis and buyers built their own bodies to suit
their needs.  In 1923 a steel C-cab was offered as an option,  and in 1924, a "closed"
box cab (like my truck) was added to the option list, as well as the "express" pickup
box bed and the "Ford Truck" embossed flatbed, like my truck has.

  Cooling issues caused Ford to make the radiator 2" taller than previous black-era
vehicles.  The T would retain this look through 1925 model year, when the "Improved
Cars" were introduced.  The 1926-27 "Improved Cars" look much like the Model A's
that came out in 1928, however the TT's continued on unchanged until the end in 1927.

[Robert McFarland]

Could you post a picture of the "improved car"?

[Ken Martin]

It's not C&S but I thought I would throw this into the discussion.
I found this in an old Popular Mechanics.

Ken Martin

[South Park]

  My expert Model T friends say that the cars being unloaded in the two
shots above are 1914 models.

  This is a 1927 Model T "Improved Car":



  By 1925, the writing was on the wall that Henry Ford's idea that a cheap,
easy to work on, reliable, but very basic motor car was not going to keep
its market share against more stylish, well appointed vehicles, and Henry
relented from his adamant position, to allow his son Edsel some design
sway.  The result for the short term was the Improved Car, a two year
design to allow time to come up with a completely new design with more
modern features.  It would be called "the Model A".

  Note the straight cowl profile, the added brightwork, the raised and rounded
fenders, the raised headlights on a fender brace/bar, and the optional wire
wheels, as compared to my truck, which carries most of the design cues
started in 1917.  Oh yeah, ... and the Improved Car could be purchased in
a variety of colors (besides black) for the first time since 1913.



  The Model A was truly a modern car that most any person capable of
driving a manual "stick" transmission could hop in and drive.  The Model
T was 1905 automotive technology, with magneto spark, planetary transmission,
internal transmission braking, and levers so backwards to modern driving that
one really needs lessons and practice to safely drive one.  But once one grows
accustomed to the machine, it is a lot of fun.  It puts smiles on peoples' faces
everywhere I go, and opens conversations with many people who also have
an interest in old junk like I do.

[Keith Hayes]

I have started on the 'A' end. It appears to me that the two end columns were retained inside and covered with sheathing,  and the doors occurred between these columns (effectively the ends of the trusses that formed the side structure of the car. The end car line was also cut to form a peak.



I contemplated building the end from scratch and decided instead to use the PBL part. The car siding is not as fine as on the Overland kit, but you won't see this anyway. I scraped off all the NBWs for the grabs (save one), applied tape and filled the holes with Squadron Green Putty. (I have not made it to the store for the water- based stuff yet). I also filled in the vertical lines at either end to form the siding board that will cover the end columns. Then I modified the cornice trim.

Next I will offer my opinion of the door hardware. But let me ponder this for one more evening.

[Keith Hayes]

One last image from the build today.


The Automobile Car will accommodate two coupes, but only one station wagon. It is easily wide enough. I wonder how the driver loading the car got out? And were there tie downs inside as on the D&RGW flats used in the 50s and 60s?

This model goes together quickly: I bet most of us could build one in less than 8 hours.

[Todd A Ferguson]

Nice work Keith.

I suspect that a 10 foot long 3x10 or 3x12 with a plate on the car ends of the planks would do the loading or unloading job.   A 12 footer would even be a bit easier.  Either could easily slide into the boxcar and travel with the load.

Best,
Todd