C&S #75

[Mike Trent]

Hi Rick, for the article I alluded to above, I included quite a bit of information germaine to #74 from Crossen's "Western Yesterdays" series, and I thought I had looked pretty carefully through the "Switzerland Trail" as well. But I don't remember that story of the trip with Williamson down from Climax. I'm sure I'd have remembered it. Not all of the Railroad stories were together, some of them were scattered in other volumes and I must have missed that. I even included some information on #75, since that is the thread we are discussing. Thanks for the heads up, I'll see if I can find it.

[Derrell Poole]

Rick ol' buddy! You know neither one of us couldn't survive without useless information. To quote my all time hero - Daffy Duck - "...I can't help it. It's my hobby." (of course he was talking about greed).

Seriously tho I think that nothing about our heritage - our history - is useless. "History is the dirty trick the living play on the Dead" (forgotten who said that). To those who speak history falls the responsibility to get every detail right - as much as possible. So. There are no useless bits of information. Those offered  may not always be appropriate to a given topic but they are all useful somewhere - that we will remember and tell the truth.

[Keith Hayes]

Mike, I am now going to have to consult my collection of "Western Yesterdays" for other historical nuggets. Thanks for your posts, elaborating on Jonah and sharing the coal boards!

[Mike Trent]

Here is the folio sheet from "The Colorado Road"

It clearly shows the tall sand dome and the longer, low sideboard on the coal bunker, correct for #75 only.

#75's deck behind the bunker was 4'. The decks behind the bunkers on #74 and #76 were (is) 5'.

[Chris Walker]

While poking around in the DPL I noticed that both the #75 and #76 had wooden decks for the Headlight to mount on.  The #75 getting an upgrade to steel decking, most likely following the 1935 Como Roundhouse fire.

 
1933  http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/42415/rec/1



1945   http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42417/rv/singleitem/rec/2



1929  http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/42423/rec/4



1945  http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42435/rv/singleitem/rec/2

[Mike Trent]

Wow. Who'd possibly care about that, other than you and me? And Keith? Thanks, Chris. I'm sure you are right about that plate being used after the 1935 roundhouse fire.

Lucky for me, my #75 is depicted before the fire.

#74 still has a wood headlight deck. A new wood headlight deck now, but it replaced the original, which lasted all these years.  Also interesting to us over the years was that the brackets themselves seem to be eerily similar to those from the old DSP&P. (??) Derrell?

[Chris Walker]

Mike,
I care, I was a Contest Modeller for 30+ years.....    {:))

It's the details that make the model, it's also the details that date the model.

[Derrell Poole]

I think what we see, Mike, is something more like this for early lantern holders - from about 1885 onward to TOC;
 

Marker Lamp Holders Pre TOC

After the TOC, as the C&S attempted to improve their existing NG power, we see markers moving ALLLLLllll over the front of the engines from the smokebox front, to the hand rails, to down low next to the steam chests! It wasn't until electric lamps, beginning in 1912, that they sorta settled down to a bracket off of the headlamp bracket.

I think what we see on the Big Brooks engines is the C&NW's flag poles with a bracket for markers lamps clamped to them.

Something to think about - every one of the ng locomotives were inherited from the railroad Itself (the UP subsidiaries that initially became the C&S) - except the Big Fs. Reality - they did not come with the initial package, they did not go thru the post TOC refittings, They did not grow up with the C&Sng; they were not "The Colorado Road" locomotives.

So we can expect them to be very different from the rest of the animals in the stable.

The Ks on the D&RG / W are also wonderful. I'm grateful there is so much left and I'm very happy 74 is still among us (wish she could be made to run!).  

[Mike Trent]

Cool. Thanks Derrell. Interesting. Sunset did a real nice job with some of the detailing on their #74. One of the things that impressed me was that little bracket. Good call. I hadn't really thought about them being original. Unfortunately, they were missing from the derelict model from which #75 was built.

[Derrell Poole]

To amend my last statrement - and to demonstrate how sometimes we mislead ourselves - the above photo is the example I was thinking of when I said markers were even found low next to the steam chest. After re examining this photo I'm not so sure this is a valid example of that. You will notice at the arrow there is a lantern. It appears to be hanging from something like a "hook". I question whether a lamp would survive very long swinging from a hook next to the hard surface of the smokebox. So I doubt this is a permanent location for a marker; especially when there is what looks like a marker bracket clamped to the hands rail in a more typical location at the time (circled).

But you will find that marker lamps migrated all over the front of the engines none the less.

[Chris Walker]

I was looking at this very same subject late last night about the time my computer decided to holiday.  Do you want what I found posted up?

[Mike Trent]

Absolutely! Thanks.

May we assume it has returned to normal duties again? We'll all be anxious for it's return, otherwise.

[Jim Courtney]

The refitting with new locomotive components didn't alway's start after the TOTC under new C&S ownership.  In D&LG days, in the mid to late ninety's, the "modern" headlight brackets with the 4 circular holes of descending diameter began to replace the original Cooke and Baldwin brackets (which kinda looked a lot alike).



Sometimes, the replacement of the headlight brackets was done in "steps" as DL&G 197 demonstrates.  Modern domes also began to replace the original fluted Cooke and Baldwin domes on some engines as well.  Photo supposedly Gunnison, mid 1890s.

[Derrell Poole]

What other changes occurred to the engines prior to the C&S that are often looked at primarily as C&S changes....?

[Rick Steele]

On the Big Brooks there were Walschearts Valve gears (74) Moving Air pumps to the Engineer's side (all) Tender modifications. You name it, whatever needed to be done.

Rick

[Robert McFarland]

Check out 75 as DB&W 31-OP11402

[Jim Courtney]

Well, Derrell, I can think of a couple:

The short smoke box extensions of various sizes and shapes, with front smoke box doors secured by those funny little c-shaped dogs (actually they kinda look like the Euro sign) start showing up as early as 1890, possibly earlier, and were clearly done under UP management, well before the DL&G receivership and Frank Trumball's arrival.

Then there are tender tool boxes, the convention of vertical tool boxes sitting atop each tender water leg, just behind the cab.  They were not original equipment on the Brooks, early Baldwin, Cooke or Rhode Island engines, but show up as early as 1885.  They were wood for 35 years until the evolution of the "intermediate tender" when they were replaced with steel tool boxes of similar dimensions at the same location.

Funny, so many of the "signature" features that define what we think of as the classic, modern C&S engine of the 1930s (headlight brackets, smoke box fronts, tender conventions) aren't C&S at all, but are echoes of a UP past.

Are there other features that I haven't listed?

BTW, what is that little vertical post on the pix of No 197 that I posted, on the smoke box, just behind and to the left of the stack?  It is bolted by a plate to the smoke box and has a little ring on the top.  I shows up in many late 1890s DL&G engines, but disappears by about 1902 or 1903.

[Derrell Poole]

[Edit alert - I have not seen any evidence any ng locomotive was significantly modified by the C&S prior to mid 1900.]

Good list, Jim. There were many details that were not C&S innovations. The changing of the crosshead guides from single to over and under guides, swapping of short main rods for long ones, different cab styles  - indeed the boxy domes on the moguls hail from the early '90s when the Brooks engines were rebuilt. All not C&S firsts. In fact the only truly signature detail of C&Sng engines were the saddled air tanks over the boilers. Now, some of you may argue the so called beartrap - never seen it catch a bear btw (who the heck started that anyway?) - is THE icon of the C&S.  The C&Sng lasted 44 years - for the first [Edit to read:18 to replace: "19"] of those years there were no "beartrap" but since very [edit to read: late 1900 to early 1901 to replace error: "late 1899 to early 1900"] there were always air tanks. Only the rebuilt Cooke Moguls did not use them and they had their own special gig going. I won't argue that it isn't A C&S iconic detail but the Ridgeway did not grace many a NG engine.

Well. That's my case, anyway.

Now. What are those funny posts next to the stack?  


Inside the short smoke box with McConnell Stake

I believe it was Rick Steele who answered that question for me. I figured out it was an adjustment device but I wasn't certain how it worked. Well it apparently changed how the engine drafted by adjusting Draft Pipe Sleeve. Study the drawing Rick provided and it will become clear what these adjusters were used for. But as to the conditions this pipe was adjusted too, couldn't tell you. They lasted until the last engine was refitted with a long box and a straight boot or shotgun style stack - about 1906.


60 at Washington - cropped Scott photo - Hackett Collection

Something else to notice in this view - the mechanical sanding valve.
 

[Chris Walker]

Derrell,

I would be thinking along the lines that the Switchman's Lantern is just hung there as judging from the long shadows these guy's have either started early in or are going to work through into the hours of darkness.   After all they're a Switchcrew and Switchers don't carry classification lights, right?

[Derrell Poole]

Well, that is what I thought too but didn't say so. Everybody was posing for the pitcher so hang the lamp.