C&S 60 on a standard gauge flatcar-why?

[Kurt Maechner]

It seems it was dropped off near Idaho Springs instead of Black Hawk according to the following:

May 13, 1941 letter from Robert Rice from Horton
I told you [May 10th] this engine and coach would be left at a point approximately 1 1/2 miles east of Idaho Springs.  Since that time the Committee in charge of the matter at Idaho Springs has changed its mind, and they now request that the engine and coach be left at the foot of Miner Street, just west of Clear Creek.  This has been arranged.

May 14, 1941 Letter from Robert Rice from Horton
He [Morris] spent a good part of the day [the 13th] in going to Golden to get Engine 60 and Coach 70, which were placed at crossing south of town for delivery to the City of Idaho Springs.

[Chris Walker]

Mike Trent wrote

Ah, Elk Creek. So, it's safe to assume that #60 was pushed (not pulled) to Blackhawk by #69? Good to know. I'm not sure I ever knew that.

Yes Mike, Idaho Springs eh!  

that would have to been the case since the trackage was scrapped out West of the Riverside Drive location, the #60 pushed in and marooned, the remaining tracks back to the Forks then removed.

Todd,  I looked at my 1982, 1992, and 1997 photos of #60, all show the Plate rotated one way or another. Last time I saw it was 2012 and upright

[Mike Trent]

Thanks, Kurt and Chris!

[Robert McFarland]

This photo was used as the model for a painting on a RAILROAD MAGAZINE cover.There are some articles about it in Bogies and Loop.

[Kurt Maechner]

So, while we're on the subject of No. 60 I have another question: Where was she in May 1941 when they decided to fix her up and send the engine and coach to Idaho Springs?

Here is info from the C&S Railway Society (they were explaining why the often-mentioned idea that No. 60 stalled and was left in Idaho Springs was demonstrably false):

The C&S mileage records for 60 show she received a complete overhaul in April of 1936.  She ran for a year till mid 1937 when she was stored serviceable in Leadville from mid-1937-January 1939.

The records contain monthly inspection sheets filled out for every month of her layup which state she was stored serviceable in Leadville.

In 1939 she operated for 6 months being put in layup again in June 1939.

According to the mileage record she never ran again after that.

So the last reference they have is that No. 60 was in Leadville in June 1939.  Does anyone know where the engine went after that?  Was the loco still in Leadville in 1941 or had it been moved to Denver for some reason?

Kurt

[Jimmy Blouch]

In regards to May 1941:
Jack Thode photographed #60 and coach 70 on display Idaho Springs May 18 1941

Jimmy

[Kurt Maechner]

Thanks, Mike, for questioning the date on the original photo, and helping us see that it is 1936 and not 1941.  That helped what I'm writing.  
Kurt

[Mike Trent]

Sure, Kurt, glad it worked out.

I have no knowledge of #60 being in Leadville until 1939. If so, it was probably left there after having been part of an equipment transfer or, the last freight in 1937. Friday, April 9, 1937 was the last passenger train (No. 70) out of Denver, was pulled to Como by #60. #9 took the train to Leadville from there. Given that the freights ran into Como on Monday, Wednesday, and, if needed, Friday, #60 was probably used as a helper on the last Freight to Leadville on Saturday, April 10th. After sitting idle in Leadville for two years, it was probably  loaded on a flatcar and taken to Denver. Purely speculation, but makes sense.

I am quite sure that the end of trackage both #60 and Coach #70 were pushed to in May 1941 was either a siding or possibly the mainline. Either way, it was original trackage and was obviously marked for the display site of #60 just short of Main St. I'm sure negotiations had been ongoing for some period of time until everything was signed off. As the C&S was interested in a tax offset, and the City of Idaho Springs was interested in a very nice display, it makes sense that the trackage was left in place pending a successful negotiation. So #60 was probably resting in the dead line until it was "spiffed up for display".

As an aside, it seems to me that #60 had an influential party within the railroad who looked out for her and even likely arranged for her to pull the last passenger train out of Denver in 1937. Probably the Road Foreman of Engines, whoever that may have been at the time. However it came to be, we are very fortunate to still have her today. Definitely a one of a kind.  Hope this helps.

[Chris Walker]

Mike,

CRRA#10:Narrow Gauge to Central and Silver Plume has the notations on motive power, taken from a C&S review done in June, 1938.

Eng. 60  Held at Leadville. (Unserviceable at present-needs Hydro)


As to the original display location of #60 in I.S. that was on a section of Mainline between the Clear Creek steel truss Bridge(Miner Street) and the newer constructed Colorado Blvd concrete Bridge.

Sanborn Fire Insurance Map 1908/Sh4


At that location there was the Siding for the Anderson (Bertha) Mill but those sidings were gone along with the Mill before the cessation of service to I.S.

A revisit on this subject is here http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/There-But-Not-Noticed-At-The-Edge-Of-Idaho-Springs-The-Anderson-Mill-tp1480p1644.html

Sanborn Postcard circa1940 (enlargement)


Otto Perry photo
OP-6264
https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/42631/rec/2

[South Park]

Is it just me, or do others look at a photo like this last one and think
what freeways do to our world ?

[Steve Black]

South Park wrote

Is it just me, or do others look at a photo like this last one and think
what freeways do to our world ?

You're not the only one who thinks that.

[Mike Trent]

Thanks, Chris! Ditto on the freeways.

[Jim Courtney]

Another photo of C&S 60 in Denver, sans pilot plow.

Photo dated "1940s" ??

Number plate appears upright with "60" present.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/0B215-RPPC-1940s-60s-COLORADO-SOUTHERN-RR-NG-LOCO-60-DENVER/402089235826?hash=item5d9e62d572:g:tGIAAOSwFwNeRK65

[Chris Walker]

Jim, that to me appears to be later than the image I posted http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/C-S-60-on-a-standard-gauge-flatcar-why-tp15223p15242.html as in your shot the Firehose drum is now darker than the bright Silver/Aluminium shown.  By the time 60 got to I.S. the drum was dark painted.  Yet your image I think is pre-"last trains" era.

I also think this earlier thread should be reviewed in relation to the current thread.... http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Got-Milk-C-amp-S-number-60-in-Leadville-td5015.html#a5016

[Kurt Maechner]

Don't know if this image fits into where we're going on the thread, but here's an Otto Perry image of No. 60 I found on DPL dated 1936.  Caption is: "Freight; eastbound; 21 cars, 20 MPH. Photographed:  Near Sheridan  Junction."
It appears to be hauling a bunch of RR ties.  Any idea why it is hauling ties?  Or are those logs with ties being used to create taller gondola sides?

[Todd Hackett]

Kurt Maechner wrote

...Or are those logs with ties being used to create taller gondola sides?

It looks like logs with logs being used to create taller sides.

[Robert McFarland]

Wasn't there some discussion about this on an earlier thread?

[Kurt Maechner]

I know I'm going all over the place on the topic, but here's a shot from when the train was on display.  Two details: First, it's really helpful that Mike explained the issue with the front number plate.  I now see it's crooked angle in lots and lots of photos.  Secondly, is it me, or does it appear that there is some sort of roof over coach 70 in this photo?

[Chris Walker]

is it me, or does it appear that there is some sort of roof over coach 70 in this photo?

Kurt,

at low angles the Ponderosa Sports Shop roof could appear to be such, I have yet to see a proper roof over the display in a photograph taken at the old location.

[Chris Walker]

Kurt Maechner wrote

It appears to be hauling a bunch of RR ties.  Any idea why it is hauling ties?  Or are those logs with ties being used to create taller gondola sides?

Loaded with Mine Props or more correctly, Posts, Caps and Stulls.

Here's the link that Robert forgot to attach

http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Mine-Props-tp13533.html is the related, previous thread on this topic.