C&S Roster - Does it exist?

[Jared Wood]

Hi there,

I am familiar with D&RGW, but stepped over to the C&S and DSP&PRR side (HELLO!).  I have found a site that has enough good info on DSP&PRR that I am set there, but in regard to the C&S, I can't find any type of "roster", that mimics what I was able to find when I collected D&RGW, and was wondering if anyone could help?

Example:
D&RGW 2-8-0's came in several groups (Classes)...so each group might look different, etc,  (Some might not be the same make, nor have the same tender, or sand domes, smoke stack, etc).  Aside from desperately trying to dig up pictures, having those groups and their numbers helps make sense of all of that (and if there is crossover from one number to the next due to being in the same group).

That said, I have seen these locos so far in HOn3, and I am sure I am missing some:

2-6-0:
Lambert #6
Lambert #8
Key #9
Key #22

2-8-0:
Key #58
Key #60
Key #71
I saw there was a #72, and a #73, but I don't think anyone made these two?
Balboa/WSM #74's
PSC #75

What I am curious about are things like, #71 for instance...I saw pictures of #73, and it is so close, I can't tell them apart (although if Key NAMED the loco #71 basically, there must be a difference I assume, otherwise it would have been stated as #71, #72, & #73)?  Are they the same class/group?  Are they close enough that those numbers could be added onto that #71 loco to get some more loco's out of that model?

I saw that #58 and 60 are so close, I would expect them to be twins, BUT they aren't.  Soo...were they from different groups/classes (maybe 50-59, and 60-6x?  Know what I mean?), and therefore that's why they are different?  Can those be fudged to be one or two other numbers by any chance?

What about the 2-6-0's, any fudging due to identical look/make/etc. for those?

Anything elsewhere that you guys know of where one of these is a twin to another, and can easily be modeled that way?  I am not a rivet counter by any means, but I don't like the idea of putting numbers and things on something that is so far from being a twin that it is just ridiculous to do.

Thank you for any help you can offer!

[Jared Wood]

Ahh, I forgot about the PFM United "tender drive" stuff that I am not into, but makes for a perfect example.

The PFM United box simply says:

HOn3
Colorado & Southern
2-8-0

How would one start to even figure out what numbers would fit this model type?

Again, thank you for any help you can offer.

[Chris Walker]

Welcome.

"round here we like to know names, it sets this place apart in the wider net.

You could start by reviewing the Locomotive Folios on the C&Sn3 Blog.... http://coloradosouthern.blogspot.com/p/f.html

The Steam Locomotive Roster by Rick Steele  and Jim Courtney's Loco Folios should explain the C&S Class and Number variances.

[Jim Courtney]

Welcome to the C&S fraternity!

The C&S, as a corporate entity, rostered a total of 69 locomotives, plus a leased CB&Q locomotive and leased three D&RGW C-19's in the last year of operations.

The "Files" section of the main C&Sn3 page may be of help. The C&S roster, provided by Rick Steele, seems to have a disconnected link. I provided a complete copy of the 1903 Locomotive Folio Sheets, which describes what you refer to as the C&S classes, though it predates the 1906 class designation system.

A brief overview:

Mason Bogie number 1 and Brooks moguls 2 and 3, didn't make it to 1906 and never received a class designation.

B3-A  Cooke moguls 11, 12, 13, built in 1884, some rebuilding in the 1890's, out of service by early late 'teens.

B3-B  Brooks moguls 21, 22, major rebuilding in 1890's, lasted until early to mid 1920's.

B3-C Cooke moguls 4-10, built in 1884, complete rebuilding in 1900-1902 as virtually new locomotives, heaviest 2-6-0's, most survived until abandonment.

Numbers 14-20 were Brooks moguls like 2 and 3, all sold by around 1900; numbers 23-29 were vacant numbers never used (a good place for free-lanced locomotives if so inclined).

B4-A  Baldwin 2-8-0s, 30-36, built 1880, nearly identical to D&RG class 56. All but number 30 were sold by 1900, number 30 lasted until about 1910 in service.

B4-B Cooke 2-8-0's 37-56, built 1883, the largest C&S class in terms of numbers, most out of service by 1910, a few survived until 1918.

B4-C Rhode Island 2-8-0's, built 1886 for Utah & Northern, moved by UP to the DSP&P in 1890, inherited by C&S. Some lasted until abandonment (58 and 60).

B4-D Baldwin 2-8-0's 63-70, built 1890. All but 64 used in service through most of 1920's. Numbers 65, 68, 69, 70 survived until abandonment. Number 70 only C&S locomotive with oil tender in late 1930's.

B4-E Baldwin 2-8-0's 71-73, built 1896 for UPD&G, heaviest 2-8-0's originally purchased for C&S predecessor. All lasted until abandonment.

B4-F Brooks 2-8-0s 74-76, built 1898 for Colorado Northwestern, later DB&W. Acquired by C&S (in trade) in 1921. All served until abandonment.

CB&Q 537, outside frame 2-8-0 from CB&Q Black Hill's lines. Leased to C&S 1930-1939.

Should you purchase a single book on C&S motive power, I would suggest Grandt's Narrow Gauge Pictorial , Volume VI, by George Coleman. Copies are usually available on Amazon.

If you want to find photos of any C&S locomotive, use the search function on this discussion forum. I and many, many others have made it our mission to post every C&S photograph we can find here.

I haven't modeled in HOn3 since the early 1980's so perhaps others can discuss the various C&S offerings in that scale as well as their strong and weak points.

Hope this helps . . .

[Keith Hayes]

Jim, you forgot to mention the three D&RGW leases: C-19s 343, 345 and 346.

Shomare, the C&S inherited a fleet of smaller locomotives built for a variety of roads. Darrell Poole has studied this considerably and I simply cannot do his study justice. Suffice to say that the C&S systemically modified the locomotives after the turn of the century. This explains the variety of domes on the consolidations, air tanks between the same domes and the spark arrestors (depending upon the decade) that make C&S lokies so darn distinctive!

I spied an Sn3 model numbered for 72 several years back at Caboose Hobbies. I nearly bought it, but passed as Chris Walker never would have forgiven me if I brought it home. No doubt it was a model of 71. The primary difference is the air tanks and the plumbing connecting them. Each locomotive had distinctive tanks in terms of length, diameter and plumbing. Headlights can also be an easy identifier.

I have always found it interesting that C&S chose to mount the air compressor on the right side of the boiler, and then engineers side also has most all the plumbing. The right side of the locomotives are pretty clean: more room for spare coal scoops and flue reamers! In contrast the D&RGW favored compressors mounted in front of the fireman with large air tanks on both sides of the boiler.

The C&S narrow gauge lines consisted of the Clear Creek lines (former Colorado Central/ UPD&G) and the South Park (former DSP&P/ DL&G). I have learned in these parts that the South Park was further subdivided into the east end (Denver) and west end (Leadville) with the division at Como. Engines and waycars seem to have been assigned to one or the other, though this can depend upon the decade. 60 was the Leadville switcher for many years. Once 70 was converted to oil, it stuck to the Clear Creek District except for jaunts to Silica. 74-76 were South Park mainstays, as were the leased locomotives. In the 30s, a long train of cars would be assembled in Denver and run to Como with four locomotives (a combination of the four leased locomotives, 71-76 and 6, 8 or 9). Seems like it took half the day to assemble the train and it would set out--slowly--for the curving ride up Platte Canon to Como, arriving at Como after dark. The next day the train would travel to Leadville, and (Mike please correct me here), all the cars would go to Leadville and then be taken back to Climax the next day. So a train left Denver once every four days, or about once a week.

Stick around. Read and search, or search and read. Post what you find out!

[Jared Wood]

Name has been changed, thank you for making me aware of that Chris.

Thank you a TON for pointing out that area that has those links! BUT, this link doesn't work, which is the exact link I would have needed, hahaha.  Is Rick Steele out there somehwere perhaps?

C&S Steam Locomotive Roster - Rick Steele
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-i5uO4f-XsCU3lHVkdTeEpyZjQ/view

[Chris Walker]

Hi Jared.  

Sorry, I was unaware that the Rick Steele link didn't work, but at least Jim Courtney's link did.

I think Rick is retired now and I can only guess his links all retired with him.  Either that or mischief is afoot at giggledocs.

[SteveG]

Just a couple adds for completeness on the HOn3 models:

-Precision Scale did versions of #7 and #10
-Overland did models of #69 and #70

https://brasstrains.com/BrassGuide has a pretty comprehensive listing of releases in all scales.

Steve Guty
Lakeway, TX

[train3guy]

Hi, Jared,

    You have asked about HOn3 models of C&S locos that have been produced in HOn3.  You listed the ones you  knew about.  Others have mentioned some of the other models produced.  I'll start there.

    The #343. 45 and 346 were listed as locos leased to the C&S, but nothing was said about who makes these available.  Key did a brass model of the #346 and Blackstone did versions of all three.  The ones with the herald are correct for the locos in C&S service.  However, the #345 only came with the Flying Grande lettering, I believe.  It was produced as the Durango Switcher, so besides the wrong lettering it also had a footboard (switcher) pilot and a shorter tender.  I converted mine by ordering a road pilot from Blackstone (when they were still available), removing and re-lettering the tender, adding the Ridgway and weathering.  I also removed the coal pile in the tender and replaced it with real C&S coal.  I did the same to the #343 and 346, but without changing the pilot since they already had the correct pilot.

   The #537 can be made a couple of different ways.  One is to modify an MDC kit.  But, the loco will be slightly too big, have the wrong tender and the domes and cab won't be correct.  Another way is to modify a C-21 D&RGW loco.  Better size, but cab and domes still wrong.

    Now, the rest of the heard.

    First, maybe a correction.  Lambert did a 2-6-0, but it is more generic than any specific number.  I have heard some say they think it is closes to #5.  And some one the boxes may have had loco numbers on them, but they really aren't accurate.  Best that can be said is that it came in two versions, one with the Ridgway, the other without.  And the loco is a little oversized.

    Of the 2-6-0's, you mentioned the Key #9 and 22, but Key also did #6 and #8.

    Others mentioned PSC #7 and 10, but PSC also did #5.

    PFM also did a C&S 2-6-0, pretty generic, but maybe close enough to #21.

    So, between the four companies C&S 2-6-0's #5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 21 and 22 have been produced.  Along with the Lambert generic       2-6-0.

    For 2-8-0's both Key and PSC did the #69.  #72 and 73 have been modeled by changing details on a #71 to represent those numbers.

    PFM's 2-8-0 has often been likened to C&S #65, though I don't see that much similarity.  The loco is again pretty generic.  It has the fluted domes which were pretty much gone by the time the Ridgways were added.

    And Westside also did #76, though as a very limited run (only 25 made).

    So, for the 2-8-0's you have #58, 60, 69 (2 different manufacturers), 70 , 71, 74, 75, and 76.  Along with the three D&RGW leased locos, possibilities for kitbashing the #537 and the generic PFM 2-8-0.

    This, along with all the info already provided on the various classes, etc. should answer your questions.

        Duncan

[Jared Wood]

Hi Jim, I see you caught the problem with the link as well, I didn't see your post soon enough.

Can you comment on this set here?

B4-C Rhode Island 2-8-0's, built 1886 for Utah & Northern, moved by UP to the DSP&P in 1890, inherited by C&S. Some lasted until abandonment (58 and 60).

You didn't give a range?  Was it 57 (56 was last # in prior set), to 62 (63 starts the next set) for the above?  I assume it is, but don't like assuming. :)

[Jared Wood]

Hi Train3guy!

Thanks a ton for catching the Blackstone #345 "version" they produced!  I considered the "Flying Grande" logo's that were on some C-19's, right after thinking I might just be able to add spark arrestors to my Blackstone locomotives to let me "flip" them to C&S duty.  I didn't take the time to look in the past few days, but I had my suspicions, so ty for confirming this!  So I will buy two spark arrestors and add them to #345 & #346.

Once SteveG pointed me to the brasstrains guide (thank you Steve, very very helpful), I found some very interesting stuff (like generic models being considered a number, which you pointed out quite nicely).

Looks like a sort of semi-official total is somewhere around 17-20 possible locomotives to choose from (if you count #65, #72, #73).  I was interested in "purchasable options" so I knew what I should filter out (25 made of #76 for instance).


I have a question based on what you said here:

 "#72 and 73 have been modeled by changing details on a #71 to represent those numbers."

Question:  Where would one find the information for these modifications to the details?  And are the modifications done via parts purchased through PSC and then doing some R&R soldering from old parts to new parts?  Or is it more wild than that?  Curious how extensive this is...

Thank you again,

Jared

[Jim Courtney]

Sorry, yes the Rhode Island 2-8-0s were numbered 57-62. Up until the 'teens, 62 was the regular Leadville switcher. From about 1918 onward number 60 held that job, with 58 substituting when 60 had to go to the shops in Denver. C&S 60 has been produced in all three scales, but spent most of its prototype career isolated in Leadville. In the last couple of years, when Climax business boomed and motive power shortages plagued the road, number 60 was transferred back to the mainline.

Some Rhode Island photos:


















Number 59 spent a lot of time on the Blackhawk mixed train, connecting to the mainline at Forks Creek.
Number 61 was often used as helper on Fish Trains and passenger excursions.
Number 62 was a regular locomotive on the isolated Buena Vista to Romley branch until it was abandoned.

Note the differences, over the years, in headlights, air pumps / tanks and domes (from wreck damage repairs).

I really recommend the Narrow Gauge Pictorial  book. Besides a complete roster, there are photos of most every locomotive of each class.  https://www.amazon.com/Narrow-Pictorial-Motive-Colorado-Southern/dp/B000RRMS9W/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=narrow+gauge+pictorial&qid=1626542143&sr=8-5

[Jim Courtney]

Question:  Where would one find the information for these modifications to the details?  And are the modifications done via parts purchased through PSC and then doing some R&R soldering from old parts to new parts?  Or is it more wild than that?  Curious how extensive this is...

As for information, just ask here by starting a thread. There are C&S specific parts available to modify imported brass C&S models available from Precision, American Models and Weisman as brass castings. Wayne Weiss (locodoc.com) had re-motoring/re-gearing sets for for several C&S brass models. Not sure if he is still in business.

One thing you should be aware of is the scarcity and inflating prices of C&S brass models in HOn3.

About 5 years ago my wife and I were seriously considering buying a small home in Waco, TX, near family, for retirement -- that was before we remembered how hot central Texas is in the summer.

I acquired quite a few HOn3 pieces of C&S brass as a "hedge", in case I ended up with only a 10x10 spare bedroom for a retirement layout. I purchased several Key 2-8-0s (58, 69, an extra 69 to convert to 65). IMHO these are the best of C&S narrow gauge brass. I paid about $650 each for those locomotives, God knows what they would bring on an eBay sale now, perhaps as much as $800-850. My point is, acquiring good C&S brass these days ain't gonna be cheap!

Now that I'm determined to model the C&S in Sn3 in my remaining days, even if I never finish a layout, at some point I will likely sell off my HOn3 C&S "hedge fund". I'll probably start by listing things on this forum, in Darel's "Swap Meet" sticky.

[train3guy]

Hi, Jared,

    Not sure on the modifications of a #71 to either a #72, or #73.  I have seen a couple of pictures.  I think the best way would be to look at pictures of each loco.  Be careful about the years the pictures were taken.  Use just the ones for the year, or look, you are wanting to achieve.  The Robb book, Pictorial of C&S Locomotives, would be a good place to start.

    I think what the people did in the modifications was to remove inappropriate details for the loco they wanted and then add details from PSC, Custom Brass, etc. to get the loco looking like the number they wanted.  Soldering skills being the main thing needed.  I haven't seen any specific article on modifying the loco to any of these versions.

    And the conversion of the Blackstone #343 and 346 to C&S is very do-able.  Yes, get a PSC Ridgway.  But, the Blackstone stack has a ridge, or lip, around the top edge.  Remove that.  But, be careful to just remove that and no more.  If not removed the stack will sit too high.  A friend in the club didn't remove it and the loco looks a little odd.  Remove too much and the Ridgway sits too low.

    Then you have to be careful bending the handrail out around the cinder chute.  I broke off the first handrail post on two of my conversions.  One I was able to glue back in place, the other popped off and got lost.  I had to replace it with a PSC part.  Not a perfect match, but you have to look very closely to see it isn't quite correct.  Adding the screen to the top of the Ridgway can be a fun challenge.  Then you have to drill/ream a hole in the back edge of the deck plate to accommodate the cinder chute.  And the chute can be trying to get it bent to correctly fit around the boiler.  But, it all can be done.  I did those two and took them to the NNGC in Seattle.  Took them to the Blackstone clinic and showed them to Jeff and Jared and they borrowed them to put up on the front table to show examples of what can be done to modify their locos.

    As I said I also did the #345, but after I had done the other two.  It sat unfinished for several years.  But, now runs and plays with all its sisters!  Just be sure to get the herald versions of the #343 and #346.  No re-lettering needed.

    Last fall there was a slightly damaged #76 offered on eBay.  I missed it, but later bought one elsewhere.  Steep price, but I did negotiate him down several hundred.  Had to add a draw bar that was missing, re-motor it and added DCC and sound.  Added some details, but the former owner had done some very nice extra detailing and had painted and lettered it very nicely.  The damaged loco was painted and lettered, but had a loose draw bar, a loose stack and cinder catcher, was missing the pilot and air pumps.  The guy selling it had found replacement pumps.  PSC made the correct pilot for it and the rest was just a matter of tightening screws.  It sold for $250, if you can believe that!  So, keep an eye open.  Those models were bought back in the late 60's to early 70's.  The modelers are now getting up there in age.  Some passing away and family may not know the history, or value of the items.  You may find something affordable.

    I think your count is pretty accurate.  If you add in the three Blackstone models of the leased D^&RGW locos there are close to twenty models of C&S locos that can be bought.  And I just found out that PSC also did models of the #6 and 8.  Don't know that I have ever seen any, but they are listed as having been produced.  So, not more locos numbers, but more versions of the same loco.

    Hope all this is of some help!

                                                                        Duncan

[Jim Courtney]

Jared and Duncan,

Rather than use the PSC Ridgeway, consider the American Scale Models assembled casting:

https://americanscalemodels.com/HO/HON3_DETAIL_PARTS?product_id=1134

It is a surplus Overland part, used on their imported number 69.

Although the D&RGW C-19 never had pilot plow mounted, a nice assembled C&S butterfly plow with pilot deck and flanger is also available:  https://americanscalemodels.com/HO/HON3_DETAIL_PARTS?product_id=1135

Another Overland part, it would be appropriate for Key 71 (and conversions to 72 and 73) as well as one of the Key 2-8-0's (69 converted to 65). I've never seen a photo of number 69 with a butterfly plow. (Chris will now probably prove me wrong!).

Of course the plow could be used on any of the rebuilt Cooke 2-6-0s. Here is one I mounted on a PSC number 7 update to mid 1920s:

[Jared Wood]

I wanted to say thank you to all of you for your help with this question, it was a HUGE help to solve the C&S roster mystery!

I appreciate all the time you put in as well, thank you.

Jared

[Chris Walker]

I forgot to add these to the above  

https://www.ross-crain.com/rr_dsp8h-locospecs.htm

https://www.ross-crain.com/rr_dsp1q-grantroster.htm