C&S Passenger Trucks, 5'-6" Wheelbase

[Jim Courtney]

Hey folks,

Bill Meredith is developing cast brass kits for the 5'-6" wheelbase passenger trucks used by the C&S on a variety of cars (baggage cars, RPOs, combines, RPO coaches and a variety of coaches). The trucks had inside hung brake shoes. Being an OCD kind'a guy, Bill wants to include the hung brake shoes and whatever levers were used to activate the same, via the air brake and hand brake rods.

Photos of the trucks make all that hard to determine, as the brake shoes are usually hidden by the large springs on the side frame. The only surviving trucks of this type, of that I'm aware, are the trucks under RPO 13 in storage at Silver Plume.

Anyone here involved in the restoration or maintenance of RPO 13? Anyone ever crawl under the frame of the car and have insight as to how the brake rods connected to the inside hung brake shoes?

Better yet, anyone know of C&S engineering drawings for this type of trucks, that might be shared? Or photos illustrating the connections?

Any information will be appreciated and would lead to more accurate trucks of this type in HO, S and O scales.

Here are the trucks that I'm referring to, under combine 26 at Leadville:

[Todd Hackett]

I crawled around under 13, 76 and 911 when they were still in Hill City, but they had standard gauge trucks under them at that time. The narrow gauge trucks were next to a building with other crap piled on and around them. I don't know that there's anything in my photos that will help, but here they are anyway:

[Jim Courtney]

Thanks Tod!

[Ken Martin]

Jim,

There is a difference between 13 and 26. 26 has a flat bar for the equalizer while 13 has a cast bar.
This matches the standard drawing. I am attaching a small drawing of the std truck.
email me at kmartin537 at surewest dot net and I will send you larger copy.

Ken Martin

[Mike Trent]

I don't remember 76 and 13 had standard gauge trucks then. 911 did for sure. #13 has 5' 6" wheelbase trucks, #76 has 5' wheelbase trucks, #911 has 6' wheelbase trucks. Correct me if I'm wrong about that, Ken. The 5' 6" trucks are in two types. According to the Postal Contract, any car containing US Mail required steel bolster trucks with inboard brakes. In order to have room for the brakes inside the frame, the extra 6" made the internal mechanism possible. Pictures show that some of the 5'6" trucks had outboard brakes, but not on the Mail and Baggage cars. Some of the combines, coaches, and baggage cars which had 5'6" trucks had outboard brakes, some were inboard, and at least one had one of each. Jim's query about the internal mechanism was probably similar. Ken might know about that. The trip to Hill City Todd refers to was to measure as best we could #13, #76, #911 as well as the Hill City Public toilet we know and love as #9 for Overland Models. So glad all that stuff has been rescued and returned to Colorado.

It's certainly possible that only the Baggage and Mail cars had the 5'6" trucks, it's hard to tell in pictures. I know I'll sure be glad to have a pair of correct trucks under my #13, and I know Keith will too!

[Jim Courtney]

Thanks so much to both of you for your responses--Bill is now hard at work with his CAD software.

[Todd Hackett]

Mike Trent wrote

I don't remember 76 and 13 had standard gauge trucks then. 911 did for sure...

I looked back at my photos, and you're right that 13 was on narrow gauge trucks, but 76 was definitely on standard gauge trucks. Both 76 and 911 were on the same standard gauge track while 13 was on an isolated narrow gauge display track, and you can see two sets of narrow gauge trucks off to the side. Unfortunately, I didn't get any decent photos under 13. Our first trip was in February 1986 to measure #9 and we went back that August to measure 13, 76, and 911. I did get some photos of 13 on the first trip, but not showing the brake connections. These are the best I could find:

[Mike Trent]

Thanks, Todd. That's right, I remember now. #76 was needed for use as a coach, so they put those goofy trucks under it. I have a nice booklet on #13 somewhere but for some reason I haven't found it in my stuff from the move yet. It has pictures of the trucks. I'll look for it in the morning.

[Ken Martin]

Mike,

You are correct for the trucks under 13, 76, 911.
Checking my folio book the following had 5’ 6” trucks
Bagg. 2, B-M 13, 26, 40-43, and misc. coaches. The rest had 5’ trucks.
The date on the standard drawing for the 5’6” truck is 7-2-08.
My thought is that after ’08 the 5’6” truck is what they bought/built and replaced the 5’ truck when they needed work.

I guess I will have to get several sets of trucks.

Ken

[Mike Trent]

Thanks, Ken. Did some of the 5' 6" trucks have outboard brakes? Or is that just my imagination?

[Keith Hayes]

If you search for RPO and look in the thread on the RPO 11 build we all contributed to, you will see several excellent images the cast steel trucks with inside hung brakes.

One distinguishing characteristic is the drop bar-- the part that drops below the pedestals and supports the springs-- is cast like an I-beam. I trust this adds some lateral strength to the truck, parallel to the bolster. The drawing Ken posted to my eye looks like a wood Master Car Builders (MCB) truck, with the added bar pinching at the ends and traveling under the pedestals and the drop bar.

But then I am not as edjumacated on some of the finer points on these trucks as you all are.

Thanks Bill for taking this project on: I look forward to building my model of the baggage car and several iterations of the trucks for my head end fleet.

[Mike Trent]

Henceforth to be knowed as the "Hayes" Bar. Edjumicated indeed! I second thanks to Bill. This is much needed in all scales for us C&S guys.

[Jim Courtney]

As part of the planned fall release of C&S baggage cars 1 and 2, Bill Meredith of Leadville Designs has committed to producing the correct C&S 5'-6" wheel base trucks, available for preorder now.

Per Bill:

After a lot of thought and feedback from folks, the C&S 5'6" passenger trucks are in solid shape for delivery this summer. I rolled in some aspects which I hope will resonate with you all. The main components fit together with just two screws. No soldering is required and the trucks are fully equalizing. The bolsters will require tapping but this is not mandatory. Included with the trucks are full etched brass brake rigging, axles, wire and screws. Perfect for the upcoming baggage car kits.


The trucks would also be appropriate for the RPO/coaches after 1912-15, RPO 13 (Overland brass in HOn3 and Sn3) and RPO 11 (Shapeways print in HOn3).

For CAD illustrations and preorder see:

HOn3: https://leadvilledesigns.com/collections/ho-hon3/products/hon3-c-s-56-passenger-trucks

Sn3: https://leadvilledesigns.com/collections/s-sn3/products/copy-of-hon3-c-s-56-passenger-trucks

On3: https://leadvilledesigns.com/collections/o-p-48/products/on3-c-s-56-passenger-trucks

Now Keith can finally finish his Sn3 model of RPO 11 . . .

[Mike Trent]

Thanks Jim and Bill.
I have happily preordered three pair of these trucks in On3. Not sure if this will be a lifetime supply of what I may eventually need, but it's a great start. And I encourage everyone else to not miss a chance to get these unicorns. As C&S guys, these are a must!

[Keith Hayes]

Mike, you are reading my mind!

[Jim Courtney]

"Unicorns" -- What a great metaphor. I never expected these to be available in my lifetime.

I preordered two pair in Sn3 this morning. By evening I kept thinking of possible uses for these guys on other cars, so I ordered two more pair.

For you guys building Roy Stevens's resin printed RPO/Coaches in HOn3 and Sn3, these are the correct trucks for these cars for most of their careers:




And by the 1930s, at least one of the St. Charles coaches, number 73, had its 5'0" wheelbase composite trucks replaced by these 5'6" trucks:





Would make for some variety under all those Overland coaches out there.

It's kind'a like prunes . . . Is six pair too many? Is four pair enough?

[Chris Walker]

So.... will you model the Monkey-tail? can't say I've ever seen one done in model form....yet!  

[Jim Courtney]

Shouldn't be a problem, Chris . . .




Now glazing all those coach windows with microscope cover glass may be a huge issue!

[Lee Gustafson]

Jim,

How did you model the “monkey tail”? You’re my hero! TIA

Lee Gustafson

[Chris Walker]

I notice that in one Perry photo(up Clear Creek) that there was two Taps on the tail; unusual to say the least given they're still in the same line.  

These appliances are a mystery to me(in the details presented) as the Taps are inline with the brakeline, which in NZR practice would be in the open position which is counterintuitive to my Airbrake training and experience(not that NZR had "monkeytails" in use).

EDIT: NZR brakepipes(Locos, Cars, and Wagons) with straight handles on the early fittings were inline vertically(Tap handle vertical closed position, horizontal open postition).  

My visual memory related above, was of the early 1955-63 GM loco's with horizontal pipes but Tap handles vertical when closed. On both applications the "Tap is up" when closed.
An illustration of the 3 variants all together here.... https://flic.kr/p/H4gTs6
Sorry about that.