C&S Cars on the D&RGW at Marshall Pass

[Pat Student]

The following cars were noted in hill job consists at Marshall Pass.

10/26/23
C&S 8170  Hay     Denver
C&S 8227  Hay     Denver
C&S 8145  Hay     Colorado Springs
C&S 8354  Hay     Colorado City

11/1/23
C&S 8151  Coal     La Jara

11/2/23
C&S 8227  Merchandise  Salida

11/23/23
C&S 8157  Coke     Leadville

11/26/23
C&S 8076  Hay       Colorado Springs

12/27/23
C&S 8382  Coal      Salida

Cars with loads destined to Colorado City, Colorado Springs and Denver would be translated to Standard gage cars at Salida.
                 

[Jim Courtney]

Pat,

Thanks so much for sharing the fruits of your research here.

I had suspected for a long time (from bits and pieces of information that has been published here and there) that interchange of narrow gauge rolling stock between the D&RG and C&S was much more common than previously thought, especially between 1900 and 1915.

I had no idea that this much interchange was occurring as late as 1923-24.

As I have an interest in modeling the Breckenridge area, could I be presumptuous and ask you (as you have time) to break down the freight cars traveling Marshall Pass that were consigned to Breckenridge. Perhaps by owner, car type and lading?

I'd love to have an excuse to model some period D&RG cars, operating in and out of my Breckenridge.

[Pat Student]

1 car of ore in a 4board gon.  The rest coal: 10 box cars (1 4300, remainder 3000 class), 6 drop bottom gone, 50 in 4 board goes.  All in D&RGW equipment.

[Jim Courtney]

Wow,

D&RG drop bottom gons made it to Breckenridge. Who knew!

What about the cars consigned to Alma, Fairplay and Garos?  They would have had to travel through Breckenridge to cross Boreas and reach their destination.

Thanks Pat

[Pat Student]

I would have thought that cars for Alma, FairPlay and Garos would have been interchanged at Buena Vista.  It is listed as an interchange point for the C&S in the ORER, i.e., Equipment Register.

Alma - 5  box cars, 3000 series, coal; 4 gondolas, 4 board, coal; 2 stock cars, 5900 series, props.

Fairplay - 4 box cars, 3000 series, coal; 2 drop bottom gondolas coal; 2 gondolas, 5 board, coal, 6 gondolas, 3board, coal; 19 gondolas, 4 board, coal; 1 gondola,4 board, posts

Garos - 3 box cars, 3000 series, coal; 2 gondolas, 4 board, coal

Kokomo - 2 gondolas, 3 board, coal; 3 gondolas, 4 board, coal

[Chris Walker]

Pat, what dates do you have for these latest entries?  The Trout Creek line washed out in 1910 so the long way around to Garos after that.

[Jim Courtney]

I would have thought that cars for Alma, FairPlay and Garos would have been interchanged at Buena Vista.  It is listed as an interchange point for the C&S in the ORER, i.e., Equipment Register.

As Chris pointed out, after 1910, when Trout Creek flooded out the mainline, the line from Buena Vista to Garos was abandoned.  As Alpine tunnel closed the same year, this left Buena Vista to Hancock (later cut back to Romley) as an isolated C&S branch line, connected to the outside world only by the D&RG 3-rail mainline. Any cars passing over Marshall Pass, consigned to Buena Vista, would likely destined to Romley branch stations, particularly coal for the mills of the Mary Murphy complex.

Any traffic (and it seems mostly coal) consigned to the above C&S stations from the Gunnison area would have to travel Gunnison--> Salida--> Leadville--> Climax--> Breckenridge--> Boreas Pass --> Como and then south to the also isolated Como to Alma branch line stations.

These records are from 1923, right?

Interesting how many box cars were pressed into carrying coal. And not just any D&RG stock cars, loaded with lumber or mine props, but the long 5900 series cars!!  

As there is no record of Gunnison area coal being consigned to points east of Como, it is likely that inbound coal for the Platte Canyon stations, especially Pine Grove with its coal chute, came from the southern Colorado coal fields via the C&S standard gauge, and transferred to narrow gauge coal cars at Denver.  Locomotive coal for Como likely also came from Denver.

And would you believe, D&RG drop bottom gons passed through Como, as well. Stopping a while in the yard before being forwarded to the Alma branch!

Thanks for all this great info, Pat. I, for one, am learning a lot of new things here.

Jim

[Pat Student]

That's one of the reasons  posted this material to learn, as well to share.

The dates are September 1923 through August 1924.  I don't think there are any more cars destined to C&S stations as I verified any Colorado station I was not familiar as being on the D&RGW.  The only potential C&S one left is Laramie, WY.  C&S or UP??

Most say the 5900's were painted black when built.

[Jim Courtney]

Most say the 5900's were painted black when built.

I'm a bit ignorant of the nuances of early D&RG freight car details. Seems like I recall the "D&RG" being reorganized into the "D&RGW" about this time.

Were the 5900's lettered "D&RGW" when built, or was there a temporary "D&RG" lettering scheme?

While we're at it, the 700 series drop bottom gons:  When were they rebuilt from their original "Longhorn" configuration to the common car we think of today, with side activated drop doors? I have this unbuilt Sn3 PBL kit, you see . . .

[Pat Student]

D&RG + RGW = D&RG Incorporated 1920

5900's were build September 1923, D&RGW

700's basically unchanged except for inside height and steel channels added to centersill plus safety appliances.  800's had very long operating levers while they had coke racks installed.

[Jim Courtney]

So, the 700 series drop bottom gons kept their "Longhorn" operating levers on the "B" end until rebuilt in 1926?

What a cool interchange car for a C&S layout!

[Pat Student]

I wouldn't go by car folio drawings for this kind of detail.  I looked at some 700 series drawings from the mid teens a week ago at Denver Public Library and don'e recall seeing this feature.  However, my search was for different cars.

I've seen many folio drawings for 1000, 1500 and 9200 class gondolas issued in the teens and early 20's before rebuilding showing 5 boards, 50" interior height, when the cars in fact were 4 board, 40" interior height.  Only the 2900 class, 26 cars, were 5 board, 50" interior height.

I have a drawing from 1915 showing details for the 1500 class, 5 boards, 50" interior height.  Didn't happen until 1927/1928.

[Jim Courtney]

I got curious and pulled out my Grandt Narrow Gauge Pictorial III.

This is the only photo I found of the 700 series gons with their early "longhorns", albeit some broken:





Photo is dated c1910, after a Chama flood. Looks to be a lot of dimension data of sorts stenciled on the car sides.

OK, all you lurking D&RG experts . . . we know you're out there . . . how about some photos of these neat cars in their original configuration? Any builder's photos?

[Jeff Young]

Where were the drop-bottom gondolas going to in Fairplay?  There might have been elevated tracks at London Junction for the big smelter there, but I assume that would have been listed as “Alma”, not Fairplay….

Fascinating thread, BTW.

Cheers,
Jeff

[Pat Student]

Wish industry information was available.

Drop bottom cars were destined to D&RGW locations that didn't have a ramp.. Assumed that they were unloaded the same way a solid bottom cars was unloaded, with a shovel.

[Mike McKenzie]

Not at home right now so don't have my materials handy regarding the early "longhorn" manifestation of the drop-bottom gons. They are covered pretty well in Sloan's book, and I have a original erection card drawing (from DPL) with the longhorn levers and the drop doors hinged from the sides not the center! Have a decent picture (from Dorman I think) of one of these creatures somewhere as well, will try to find it.

As I recall, the originals were built around 1905 and extensively rebuilt shortly thereafter with the more familiar short lever and center hinged drop doors. Then rebuilt again in the twenties with everything else. DPL has erecting card drawings from '05, '18 and '26. Again, Sloan would have more detail.

Now if I can just find this stuff...

Mike

[Jim Courtney]

I've been looking at DPL photos of Leadville and Salida, searching for any C&S cars on the D&RG--no luck yet.

I found this photo of one of the 700 series drop bottom gons hiding in a string of freight cars in Salida. Probably late teens or early 1920s, judging from the USSA hardware on adjacent boxcars:


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/34191/rv/singleitem



The car doesn't appear to have the "longhorn" release levers and has a high brake staff on the left end, like modern drop-bottom gons. Perhaps it is a circa 1918 mid-phase rebuild that Mike mentioned, before the final rebuild of 1926. Wish I could find my copy of Sloan's compendium, misplaced a couple of weeks ago, it seems.

This might be the Salida RIP track, judging from the roof of the boxcar 3354 to the left, badly in need of roof repair.

Anyways, the drop bottom gons that Pat cites, as visiting Breckenridge and consigned to Fairplay, likely looked like this in 1923-24.

[Jeff Young]

Wow, Salida is a busy place around 1920!

BTW, there’s another 700 series at the other end of that cut of cars, and a boxcar getting its roof re-sheathed in front of it.

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Jim Courtney]

Yes, and I think that deserves a thread of its own.

[Jim Courtney]

Here's a photo of one of those D&RG boxcars that Pat cites, as being consigned to Climax, hiding behind folk gathered for a photo:



Climax Molybdinum Company Photo, dated 1924. In Ferrell's C&Sng.


And back in the 19teens, three D&RG boxcars are backing slowly down to Dillon and Dickey. They have been picked up at Colligan spur, just to the left of the Snake River trestle. They are probably empties, their lading (coal?) having been unloaded at the wagon platforms at the spur, probably now being teamed up to the mines at Montezuma or Peru Creek.



In the Klingers' C&S Highline Memories . . .