C&S Cars on the D&RGW at Marshall Pass

[Jim Courtney]

OK, all you lurking D&RG experts . . . we know you're out there . . . how about some photos of these neat cars in their original configuration? Any builder's photos?

An email-pal answered my call. He kindly provided this photo of wrecked D&RG 700 series "longhorns" at Caracas:






The "longhorn" ratchet levers, for closing the bottom doors, are clearly visible, although askew. Compared to the folio drawing, the cars now have high brake staffs.

This photo was also published in Grandt's Narrow Gauge Pictorial III, the photo is dated to July, 1917, proving that the original center shafts, inside hinged, outside opening dump mechanism, with the "longhorn" ratchet levers remained in service until the 1918 intermediate rebuild, as Mike indicated above.

[cdressel]

FWIW:
D&RGW Drop Bottom Gon History

Chuck

[Mike McKenzie]

Here's a partial from "Erecting Card, Narrow Gauge National Coal Dumps Car Numbers 700-799.....3772.....C-421.....December 13, 1905" DPL location: "Equipment drawings - Rg39;Sec5;Sf4;Tube1" showing the end lever arrangement. I was in error yesterday (3 mistakes in 3 days across 2 forums, losing my touch), the early drop bottoms were hinged from the center not the sides as I stated.



http://eadsrv.denverlibrary.org/sdx/pl/toc.xsp?id=WH512&qid=sdx_q5&fmt=tab&idtoc=WH512-pleadetoc&base=fa&n=15&ss=true&as=true&ai=Advanced

And a rare photo of the beast in Salida...



http://ngtrainpics.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/RD024-D-RGW-Salida/G0000i08CfZmpfVM/I0000MAAs5suGCL0/C0000Vd2qoA2MbNU

Only pertinent to the C&S in that they would have existed in the time period covered by the C&S/D&RG interchange topic. Would really like to see if a photo(s) exists of the equally rare early D&RG 1250-1499 dump gons which were later rebuilt to regular high sides, would have been in the same time frame.

Mike

[Jim Courtney]

Beautiful drawings, Mike.

Do you have a drawing of a "section" which shows the internal rods at the car center, that operated the doors?

[Mike McKenzie]

May try to find the time to do a nice 3D model (not 3d printed!) and rendering of this car, not for a while though, too much stuff going on... There's a drawing out there of the coke car version as well, the early 800 series I believe.

St. Louis in 5 weeks.

Mike

[Jim Courtney]

Looks like a serious scratch building project . . . I think I'll wait for the injection molded kit.

Can't make St Louis--will you be in Denver at the end of August?

[Keith Hayes]

Careful. You could take an eye out with those!

[Pat Student]

D&RG 1471 as built



Cros section of operating mechanism.  Door were only between center 5 posts.

[Keith Hayes]

You all need to consult Sloan. The car in Pat's post is not one of the long horns: it is different.

[Mike McKenzie]

Keith, Pat posted these in response to my request for the elusive 1250-1499 D&RG dump gons that were later converted to regular high sides. Neat cars but poorly documented.

Thanks Pat, I've been looking for a high-res version of the photo of 1471, only have a low-res copy 5" x 8" @ 96dpi, do you know of a source for a high-res copy? I do have that drawing though, lots of detail to extrapolate. Also acquired any and everything that DPL has as far as hardware drawings of the 1250-1499 series.

The best photo of one of these cars that I've seen from DPL:



http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/38638/rec/1

You really have to zoom in but the detail is pretty crisp, car 1271.

Doing some 3d modeling and 2d drawing of these cars, mainly just to figure them out.




Still have a ways to go, have to figure out the mechanism. Would make a nice display at a future convention.

Have seen fuzzy or distance shots of these cars on the RGS, but it'd be cool if there's a record of interchange with the C&S.

Mike

[Pat Student]

Here's a few 1250 - 1499's with C&S destinations and dates arrived Marshall Pass.

Breckenridge

D&RG 1497  10/17/23

D&RG 1430  10/24/23

D&RG 1253  11/26/23

D&RG 1390  1/24/24

D&RG 1495  3/19/24

D&RG 1492  4/15/24

Climax

D&RG 1269  8/27/24

D&RG 1264  9/14/24

Fairplay

D&RG 1459  10/22/23

D&RG 1436  12/3/23

D&RG 1353  1/27/24

D&RG 1347  2/5/24

R&RG 1258 5/18/24

D&RG 1261 7/3/24

D&RG 1376 7/27/24

Kokomo

D&RG 1403  7/13/24

These did not show any more or less frequently loaded with company coal than any of the other solid bottom gondolas.

[Jim Courtney]

I'm usually not that enthusiastic about D&RG freight cars (probably comes from building too many 3000 series boxcars in my youth).

But these photos and Pat's research means that these D&RG cars were hauled over Fremont and Boreas passes and up Chalk Creek, often by 2, 3 or 4 C&S locomotives, in trains trailed by a C&S bobber caboose.

Suddenly that makes these cars fascinating.

And Mike, seems like you've already done the CAD work for D&RG 4 board stakes with the large cast stake pockets.  Any chance of another Shapeways gondola stake project?  A couple of D&RG gons might make an interesting addition to a 1909 C&S scene.

Weren't the stakes and stake pockets on the 1000-1249 gons of 1902 the same as on the dump gons 1250-1499? Any builders photos of the 1000-1249 standard flat bottom gons?

[D. W. Bassett]

Hi Jim,

Le Thu and I will be at the Denver show if i can swap a week with one of my fellow railroaders. If you're going solo you can pal around with us if you want.  i think we already know which 10,000 plus foot high railroad we want to visit!

DW

[Pat Student]

The 1000 - 1249 had 10 stakes per side same as the 1500-899, 1900-1925 and 9200 -9574.  Only the 1250 - 1499 had 8 stake per side due to the bottom doors.  During the rebuilding oil the 20's ad later, many of the 120 - 1499 received 10 stake per side.

On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 12:39 PM, Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm usually not that enthusiastic about D&RG freight cars (probably comes from building too many 3000 series boxcars in my youth).

But these photos and Pat's research means that these D&RG cars were hauled over Fremont and Boreas passes and up Chalk Creek, often by 2, 3 or 4 C&S locomotives, in trains trailed by a C&S bobber caboose.

Suddenly that makes these cars fascinating.

And Mike, seems like you've already done the CAD work for D&RG 4 board stakes with the large cast stake pockets.  Any chance of another Shapeways gondola stake project?  A couple of D&RG gons might make an interesting addition to a 1909 C&S scene.

Weren't the stakes and stake pockets on the 1000-1399 gons of 1902 the same as on the dump gons 1400-1499? Any builders photos of the 1000-1399 standard flat bottom gons?

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[Jim Courtney]

I wasn't referring to the number of stakes, Pat, but the type of stake pocket,

The 1500-1899 series had side stakes with a metal plate on the outside, with single U-bolt. This type of stake is offered by Grandt Line in HO, S and O scales.

I was asking about the stake pockets on the 1250-1499 cars, which had a cast stake pocket with 2 U-bolts. These are unavailable in S scale. Were the stake pockets on the 1000-1249 series gons also the same, with cast, 2 U-bolt stake pockets?

[Mike McKenzie]

Jim,

I believe the 1000-1249 cars had the same cast stake pockets as the 1250-1499s.



Stake pocket on 1456, Chama Oct. 2015.

A lot of the rebuilt gons got the metal plate with U-bolts, so the cast pockets are rare. The cast pockets should print well enough, at least as well as the C&S coal car stake pockets we did.

Mike

[Pat Student]

9200 - 9574, 1000 - 1499 received the 2-bolt stake pocket, cast.  1500 - 1899 received the stamped plate with 1 U-bolt when built.  1900 - 1925 likely received the stamped plate when built.

the 9200 - 9574 and 1000 - 1499 receive new stake pockets the rebuild in the 20's or later.  The key seems to be whether the side sill was replaced at rebuilding.

[Pat Student]

2-bolt castings are available from Grandt Line, part # 4021.  These fit the P_B_L high side gondola stakes quite nicely once the u-bolts are removed.  Dry fit is almost permanent.

For a D&RG 1000 -1249 or 9200-9374 before rebuilding

[Pat Student]

Were there additional C&S cars interchanged with D&RG. Probably.

However, they likely they were part of the train, No. 326 or an extra, ascending Marshall Pass. As such they would not be recorded like the hill jobs.  There were probably instructions to keep these cars in trains so as to expedite their return to home road so D&RG would not pay extra per diem.   Interchange the cars by midnight and per diem stopped.

The above is speculation, but conversations with colleagues from stations and accounting say it makes sense.  It'll be my explanation when I get the layout running.

Also, why were these cars on the D&RG.  Was it normal interchange traffic, an item was produced on the C&S and sold to a customer on the D&RG,  or were thy part of the compensation to the D&RG for operating the Pitkin Branch; hence the D&RG could use these cars as if they owned them?  The latter is, also, logical from my colleagues.

[Pat Student]

If you're going to model a 5900 in addition to an un-rebuild 5500, the color to paint the is "freight car mineral paint".  One of the requisitions for materials for the 100 cars calls for 450 gallons "Freight Car Mineral Paint".  Dan Pyzel with the Friends reports that 5995, they restored, has "red" paint all over the car as they scraped it down to bare wood.

Red stock cars lasted until 1937 as evidenced by 2 wires to train masters in Durango, Gunnison and Montrose instructing them to not load any red stock cars in their territory, but to send them to Alamosa to be painted black.

So, but not of interest, 5500's when rebuilt were painted red.  Too late for interchange at Leadville.