C&S 74 Entering Leadville

[Keith Hayes]

This image popped up on the C&S Facebook Group this week. It is an Otto Perry image and DPL states the date is May 2, 1941 (10 mph, 13 cars approaching Leadville).

Right away I spied CONX 14 and 5 leading the train, followed by 6 boxcars, 5 coals and the waycar.

Bill Meredith noted that the tank cars are inconsistent with the date, as it seems to be established that no tank cars were left in Leadville after 1938. I suppose I should ask: is this established fact? Tank cars were not listed on the instructions to trainmen to forward particular cars to Leadville in 1938. The order does indicate that some equipment was already in Leadville, and I suppose this could have included tank cars.

FYI, May 2 was a Friday, so I guess Otto was taking a day off from delivering mail. This was six months before Pearl Harbor, so gas rationing was not in effect yet.

Also curious to me is the fact that we have a photo of a train entering Leadville, and it has a single locomotive on the point. My point being that we see a train entering the Cloud City during daylight, which is rare. Either the trains got into town after dark, or our railfans were out of film, or both. If this was the end of Denver-Leadville operations, it is interesting that 74 is handling the train alone, as trains from Denver tended to have four locomotives to boost the train over Kenosha-Boreas-Fremont Passes. So maybe it is 1941?

I recall Grandt published a photo of 74 switching the tank cars, which is interesting because Otto spent the night in Leadville and photographed 74 taking a cut of cars back east Saturday morning:

This time the train has 3 boxes and 3coals plus the waycar and no tanks. So if the tanks were coming back from Climax they were spotted to get filled if they were not just along for the ride advertising.

Then there is this pic:

This is 74 headed westbound (towards Leadville) on June 15, 1943, which was a Tuesday. This time 74 has 15 cars: 4 coals; CONX 14; 5 boxcars; 5 flats and the waycar.

It is reported that Otto was very precise recording dates, so these photos seem to reflect that both the dates are correct, some tanks were used on the Climax run after abandonment, and one locomotive was sufficient to manage the train, which could make it back to Leadville before dark.

[Mike Trent]

Interesting that in the last picture of #74 headed downgrade from Climax in June '43 that the broad gauge rails have reached but not placed at this location yet. The last narrow gauge train operated August 25, 1943. Nice group of pics of #74.

[Jim Courtney]

Hi Keith,

I'm pretty sure all the photos are between 1941 and 1943 on the isolated Leadville to Climax segment. The views of number 74 returning to Leadville as the only locomotive on the train, doesn't mean that the uphill consist to Leadville wasn't double headed. It was usual practice to cut out the helpers at Climax or Boreas and let the helpers go down alone, either ahead of or behind the train.

Here is a view of C&S 74 double headed with C&S 76 with a long consist headed to Climax:




And here is a view of the other end of the train, returning to Leadville, in your third posted photo:



With some telegraph poles for Mike and Jeff.  I think the location was near Birdseye . . .

[Doug Heitkamp]

I know it has been mentioned before, but note the roof hatches on the boxcars in the double header picture.

[Jeff Young]

Interesting.  Do you think they were shipping the molybdenum disulphide out as bulk powder?  

It is separated from the gangue by flotation, so it's not terribly heavy, but it's still about 2-1/2 times the density of coke.  (But I guess they filled the coke cars to the tops of the added stakes, so you could see a box car 40% full or something...).

[Jim Courtney]

I thought the boxcar with roof hatches was for bulk materials like sand and concrete for the Climax mill expansion--kind'a like a covered hopper, emptied via the side doors.

Anyone know for sure??

[Chris Walker]

Yes the roof hatches have been discussed here before.  Most likely for Cement and Aggregates used to make concrete in the expansion of the Mill, see: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/Freight-car-ratios-tp205p310.html .


No, they weren't for outbound Moly in bulk.  Photos taken in 1918 show Moly was shipped in 100lb sacks, prior to WW2 export orders in the '30's were shipped in 600lb Oak shipping casks except that ordered by Japan, which was shipped in steel drums, with Drums becoming standard after that.  

Interior view of a warehouse filled with barrels at the Climax Mine in Lake County, Colorado.
https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/36893

As for that tankcar, shown in captive Climax-Leadville service.  Note the lettering is almost gone but the car number is fresh.  I've often wondered if this could have been for flotation reagent not fuel, in the beginning, distilled pine oil was used but switched to Arctic Syntex M in the mid-1930's.  Just what quantity was used and how it was shipped in, I don't know or haven't yet read.  

There was no open cast operations until around the late 1940's to require large quantities of fuel.  Surface tramways were electric and Climax had only one Steam shovel bought in 1930, although a photo shows two crawler tractors(Bulldozers) together at one place. Fuel to support that sort of operation I think, would be supplied by a truck load of 44 gal. drums.  I haven't seen any bulk tanks(for fuel storage) at the Climax Mill during expansion either, those were down at Bulk-depots in Leadville.

EDIT:  To lend credence to the drum usage but not the roofhatch for cement theory, see this photo with an electric concrete mixer adjacent to a stack of bagged cement,and a pile of steel drums in the background.
https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/36904

[Jeff Young]

Very interesting.

I got a kick out of that first thread Chris mentioned.  Feb 2015; a week or so before I joined this merry crowd. ;)

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Keith Hayes]

Chris, all very interesting!

I guess the barrels or steel drums would be shipped in empty and out full, right? How large is a 600# barrel? I probably need a bunch of these based on the warehouse.

And interesting about the tank cars.

With respect to the boxcars with the roof hatches, when do we suppose the hatches were added? Was this a post-1938 thing? Or a pre-1938 thing?

[Chris Walker]

Keith,

I guess the barrels or steel drums would be shipped in empty and out full, right? How large is a 600# barrel? I probably need a bunch of these based on the warehouse.
About crotch high.  
Some dimensions of various barrels can be found here: https://www.homenish.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/average-wine-barrel-dim.jpg
I wondered also if the barrels came in knocked down perhaps in crates, maybe I'm a little precognitive here.


photo from Climax by Stephen M. Voynick
Mineral Belt V-II has a picture of a Millhand sacking Moly. at Climax pg 230.

See: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/early-COLX-tank-cars-tp5270p5323.html for Barrels awaiting shipment or filling.

And interesting about the tank cars.
The mention earlier about there being no Conoco tankcars after 1938 on the C&S and the presence of large tanks down at Leadville lead me to that theory, especially with the need to decant product into drums for field refueling, storage issues at Climax.
See: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/Any-oil-depots-on-the-High-Line-Denver-Leadville-tp3667p3670.ht

With respect to the boxcars with the roof hatches, when do we suppose the hatches were added? Was this a post-1938 thing? Or a pre-1938 thing?
The C&S started modifying rolling stock in 1929 for Climax bound loads, e.g. the #4600-4615 Coals re-fitted with drop-ends, so anytime after that.

[Jeff Young]

Chris Walker wrote

With respect to the boxcars with the roof hatches, when do we suppose the hatches were added? Was this a post-1938 thing? Or a pre-1938 thing?
The C&S started modifying rolling stock in 1929 for Climax bound loads, e.g. the #4600-4615 Coals re-fitted with drop-ends, so anytime after that.

In the other thread Derrell posted a picture of 4 of them in Alma in 1935.

[Chris Walker]

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/3419

Just because certain cars are equipped for a specific service doesn't always mean they were used specifically for that service at any particular time.  
There is a boxcar w/hatches appearing in pictures taken at Black Hawk 1939 and Forks Creek area, in '41, the latter being the #8237, obviously trapped after the Sth. Park Mainline was pulled.  

[Jeff Young]

Sure, but they didn't appear in Alma in 1935 if they didn't yet exist in 1935.

[Keith Hayes]

Are the boxcars in question with the roof hatches the ones hanging out in the right rear of the image?

I note one car to the left with an 11-rib Murphy roof.

[Southpark]

A number of years ago in a conversation with Albin (Bud-Andy) Anderson, son of Albin (Brownie) Anderson,  Andy mentioned one of his jobs on the C&S when he got out of high school was trans-loading those barrels of moly from the narrow gauge box cars to the standard gauge box cars in Leadville.  The statement was "they were heavy".  Andy graduated from the one room Como high school.  The school is open for tours during the August Railroad Day at Como and you can see it as it was left in the late 1930's.  I am not sure without checking my notes but I think Andy was at the top of his class and the bottom of the class!
I have seen that there was a request from Japan in the 1930's for a better grade barrel on the export moly.  The story is that barrels were used for depth charges in WW2.  Proof??
Tom Klinger

[Chris Walker]

The statement was "they were heavy". 

now that's an understatement, the Barrels being 600lbs.  Having hoisted and carried 125lb sacks of feed at my Parent's farm when I was a teenager(that was the limit for this 130lb weakling), I could only wonder at up-righting a full barrel.



I have seen that there was a request from Japan in the 1930's for a better grade barrel on the export moly.  The story is that barrels were used for depth charges in WW2.  Proof??

from Climax, by Stephen M. Voynick. Pg. 163

[Keith Hayes]

Well push me over with a feather....