C&S 4319 lettering question

[jason midyette]

Greetings all,

In doing research on Colorado & Southern coal car / gondola 4319, I seem to keep running across statements that this series of car never received the large block C&S lettering style and that if there is any trace of that style of lettering on the car, it is from its time in Central City.

Try as I might, I can not locate any photos of the car lettered with the block lettering while on display in Central City and the car itself bears indisputable evidence of having been lettered this way. The block lettering remnants on the car also very much seem to be one of the first layers of paint on the car and as such appear to date from the early C&S days rather than circa 1980's on display in Central City.

In a quest to prove/disprove the historical nature of the lettering remnants I would ask, does anyone have a photo of or firsthand knowledge of C&S 4319 lettered in the "Block" lettering style while on display in Central City?

Thank you

Jason Midyette



The faint ghost of "4319" is visible on the side of the car. Notice how many layers of paint cover the numbers as well as how the numbers are visible in the bare wood. It would seem that if this lettering was applied in Central City it would be atop so many layers of existing paint that it would not survive as the paint peeled off to bare wood.



With the 1987 butchery of a passenger door closed, the block C&S can be seen on the side of 4319. Like the number, this lettering sure seems to be at the base of many layers of paint.



Once in Como, the "4319" could be clearly seen on the other side of the car as well.



As could the large block "C&S"

[Jim Courtney]

Hey Jason,

The conventional wisdom that the phase 1 (1902) coal cars never sported the block monogram, comes from published statements by Derrell Poole. He pointed out that no one has ever found a photo of a 1902 coal car in service on the C&S with the block monogram scheme.

Does this mean that it didn't happen?? No, just no photos of such a car, to prove it. At least some of the older St Charles coal cars were repainted with the block lettering scheme in the early 19teens.

As to the Gothic number on the side of the car today, it is the style of numbering used on the block monogram scheme, but in the wrong place. The car number was normally located on the lower side sill, to the right end of the side. This photo of a 1910 SUF coal care with surviving, original block monogram, demonstrates the location of the number:


Photo from John Maxwell, Denver, 1940


Apparently, in the 1920s, some coal cars, with indiscernible lettering / side numbers on the sills, had new numbers stenciled on the sides in the location of the car at Como, without re-lettering the entire car. The C&S likely used whatever stencils in hand, Gothic prior to 1924-25, Roman thereafter.

There is a photo on ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Colorado-and-Southern-Passenger-Car-1962-Photograph/282669368698?hash=item41d068457a:g:o3kAAOSwYIZZyY7V, which shows the Central City coal car in 1962, with an odd lettering scheme with dimensional data in the wrong place and carrying a "Burlington Route" square herald where we are used to seeing the C&S "button" herald.

Is there any evidence of the "Burlington Route" herald of 1962 on the coal car now at Como? If not, that might (or might not) suggest that the remnants of the Gothic lettering are a post 1962 variation of display lettering.

So what I'm saying, is that the Gothic car number may be of C&S origin, maybe not. Not sure about the Gothic "C&S" block lettering, it (and the Gothic number) could have been one of may later display lettering schemes.

Anyone know for sure??

[Mike Trent]

Hi Jason, thanks so much for posting these photos.

#4319 was lettered with brand new button herald livery when delivered in 1941, but these photos that show ghosting of what can only be ancient block lettering, plus the indisputable style of numerals that would have accompanied it is all I need to see. It is inconceivable that with over 100 of these cars in service, not one of them was painted with the block lettering style. It may have been unusual, given the age of the 1902 fleet during that time, but maybe not that unusual. For certain, there had to have been some, and #4319 was one of them.

Thanks again.

[Chris Walker]

Since we are discussing the #4319 and just that car number not the entire Ph1 Coalcar series, and this subject is near to my research of these cars of close on 35 years now.

Jason,

a little challenge to your fine detective skills.  

Since the #4319 was prepared for display in the Button Herald scheme I would consider a higher level of repaint preparation than the lick and a promise of the operating days. I see no shadow of Block visible in any of the number of display photos taken.
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42920/rv/singleitem/rec/965
Photo taken by Otto Perry at BlackHawk in 1941.
   



Most surviving coalcars that carried the block lettering at the end of operating years had [i]Roman[/i] numerals re-stenciled, some with and some without the [i]Roman[/i] C&S initials i.e. the car number and most important repack dates were re-stenciled, the capacity data deemed irrelevant by that time and the Button herald not always applied as well.  

Numerous photo examples of that latter day practice abound.

[jason midyette]

Thanks to replies on this board and the NGDF, I think that it has been pretty conclusively shown that the traces of the block/gothic lettering on 4319 are from an inaccurate 1986 repaint and are not a relic from the car's C&S days.

As such, this is what we sill shoot for in restoring 4319....



A Richard Kindig shot of a freshly painted (by the C&S) 4319 in Blackhawk in 1941, waiting to be hauled to Central City.

JasonM idyette

[Mike Trent]

This would have been my preference anyway.

Thanks for your detective work. I wonder if Dave Roger's painted the block lettering? He did the block lettering on 1006 at about that same time.

For the record, I still remain unconvinced that there were no 1902 cars with block lettering. I'm a firm believer in the never say never school of thought. Out of all the 1902 cars that we have in pictures, there are probably 70 or 80 we don't.

[snapped_bolt]

Hmmm...

    Inaccurate 1986 repaint? Got pictures?

     The "ghost" lettering looks as if it would predate a 1986 paint job. It could be part of an original C&S patch job. Perhaps someone grabbed the wrong box of stencils. It just looks too worn-in to just be a decorative stencil. Of course, pictures of the incorrect color 1986 paint job will verify.

     However

      Those numerals appear to be of the dimension correct for a BOXCAR.

      Final thought

      The C&S had access to far better outdoor paints than what we use today.

      When did the "Button Herald" get applied to these cars? Wouldn't it originally have worn "The Colorado Road"?
         There's my vote.

        Cheers

          Stan


       

[Jim Courtney]

Yes, the 1902 coal cars carried the box "The Colorado Road" herald when built (between the two center stakes), with "Colorado & Southern" upper/lower case C&S Roman on the side sills. The button scheme didn't show up until mid to late 1920s

Here's a King Solomon solution: C&S button herald scheme on one side of the car, the original "The Colorado Road" lettering on the other!

And I'm with Mike; I suspect at least some of the 1902 coal cars received the C&S block lettering in the early to mid 19teens; we just haven't discovered the photo as yet.

[jason midyette]

In Central City, April 27, 1986. Photo by Charlie Mutschler. The lettering exactly matches the ghost lettering seen on the car today, thus confirming its origin. Also note that much of the car appears to have been bare wood prior to this paint job, thus allowing the "4319" to become the first layer of paint on the car. 4319 has been repainted at least twice since the block lettering was applied (1987, 1990 and possibly 1999). Couple that with nearly 20 years of ageing and the "counterfeit" lettering takes on a rather "genuine" look.

Jason Midyette

[Mike Trent]

Sure does. Is it just on the one side? I'll bet that was done by Dave Rogers. He painted one side of Caboose #1006 with the block lettering on one side. Dave did a lot of the lettering work at CRRM, and he was an avid C&S guy who loved restoration/preservation work. He was also a super good guy in general, and passed away much too young. I'll always miss him and never forget him.

[Kurt Maechner]

I'm wondering too if the block lettering was applied in the 1980s to only one side.  All the photos I have of the gondola from the early 1990s  show the button herald, but my photos are all from the same side.  Photos of the gon when used on the Blackhawk and Central City narrow gauge show the button herald as well.  Again, it may have only been on one side.  

That being said, the work to get 71 and train running for 1987-1990 occurred in 1986 (or 1987?).  Either way, Jason's 1986 photo shows it before the tourist railroad put a roof on it.  Maybe it was painted over at that point.

Here is a photo from 1964, showing the time after the Q relettered the C&S displays with the current CB&Q herald, including the 4319.


Kurt

[Kurt Maechner]

Also, here she is in June 1987 with the block lettering before being moved for operational restoration.  Photo is by Steve Clifford as published in the October 2017 B&L

[snapped_bolt]

   Wow

      Someone with a paintbrush should be punished for history abuse! Especially that "Q" herald!

      Jason- will this car be restored with the original wood, or new? What types were used? I am unfamiliar with drier climates and the ageing of wood outdoors.
      So glad to see it on C&S track!

         Cheers!

          Stan

[Rick Steele]

Jason,

To put this thread to rest (hopefully) forever.

The 4319 when put on display, was lettered up in brand new paint, resplendent in its circular C&S trademark with the proper numbering, reporting marks and dimensional data, all done courtesy of the C&S shops.

The equipment was repainted in the late 50's or early 60's by a group of railfans who got the paint and stencils donated to them by the C&S. They apparently repainted the equipment in Idaho Springs as well. The elements at over 8,000 feet were not kind to the equipment. By that time that the repainting took place the circular trademark was a thing of the past and the CB&Q box herald was on all C&S lettered equipment running around on the broad gauge.

The locomotive 71 was relettered in the standard CB&Q style with 71 on the cab side in Dulux Gold with the small C&S beneath the locomotive number. The "Colorado and Southern" on the tender had been replaced by a Scotchlite Burlington Route sticker. The 71 on the number plate was also repainted with a Dulux gold sticker in place of the Aluminum 71 used on the C&S.

The 4319 was repainted to Chinese Red with white lettering, the C&S Circle was replaced with the CB&Q rectangle. Yes, bright Chinese Red. The block lettering was added when the CCNG left town permanently and restored the 20, 4319 and 71 to display. I did not touch the 4319 as it was in the back of the yard in Central City. I did notice, however, that the old C&S rails from the display were red underneath the Gondola and green under the Combine, indicating that spray painting equipment was used during the repaint.

The 20 was repainted to the standard CB&Q coach Green and the only saving grace was the the letterboard was not relettered "Burlington". During this repaint the 20 lost its Adams Express Company lettering.

When the line was being rebuilt in 1968-69 (good lord, was it that long ago?), I was working for the CCNG (the Ashby's) at that time. Lindsey gave me permission to strip and repaint the 71. I restored the Aluminum paint to the cab side, tender side (that's how I know that the Burlington Route was a sticker) and the Number plate. The curious thing about the number plate was that it was so highly varnished that the Aluminum Paint did not stick. The color under the varnish was Gold. NOT Dulux Gold, Metallic Gold and it was beneath the C&S Aluminum. That was lost to History when Court Hammond "restored" 71 and ran it. The 71 that the locomotive now sports on its number plate was added in the 1980's by Hammond and crew. No, the tender had been rebuilt enough times that there was no remnant of the Gold lettering left there, either. There was some on the steel plate on the cab side.

The 20 was Stripped and repainted by me in a Pullman Green (that we got from Bob Richardson at the Colorado Railroad Museum). I relettered the car in a Mustard Gold because Metallic Gold fades so quickly. It was at this time that I restored some of the striping, found underneath the Freight Car red from its MOW days. The "Adams Express Company" and the words "Baggage" and "Chair" were painted on the sides of the car. There was some other gold lettering or filigree under the paint but there was not enough to make out what it was I left it in place when I repainted the baggage end side. There are no good photos showing it when it was numbered 121 so I had no guide to go by. I did nothing on the interior, which was Oak and Cherry Finished, or the Baggage compartment which was painted kind of a milk white. The car was repainted in the late 1970's when the CCNG restored the display to its original C&S display paint job.

Rick