Re: More C&S caboose under frame weirdness.
Posted by Jim Courtney on
URL: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/the-caboose-that-never-was-tp8369p9461.html
One thing-- with respect to the "intermediate" 9 ft undercarriage, I'm confused as to why you listed 308/1006 as having had an intermediate undercarriage. The 1006 folio shows a 9 ft wheelbase, but couldn't that be the modern undercarriage? I believe we have only the one photo of 306 with the intermediate version on the C&S and predecessors, and at the moment, no early photo that is inconsistent with the shorter 6' 3" wheelbase.
My, my John!
For a guy participating in a mass conjecture, you're quite the stickler for details!
You're right, we only have one photograph for what I have labeled the "intermediate" underframe (for lack of a better term), that of 306 / 1005 taken about 1900-1901, that suggests a 9 foot underframe. But I would bet that 310 / 1008 had the same underframe applied. The two cars are so nearly identical, that I bet they were in the shops in the 1890's at about the same time, rebuilt as "twinsies".
As to 308 / 1006, you may be correct. The new caboose numbering scheme was devised in 1911, applied in early 1912. So the folio of 1006 must have been updated no earlier than 1911. By that date, the car might have been completely rebuilt to the modern configuration, and the new, modern undercarriage of 9 foot wheel base annotated to the drawing--they may not have bothered changing the image (as they did on the 1007 folio)--may not have drawn in the new end cupola, nor erased one of the side windows. But they did redraw the wheels to the 9 foot wheel base!
Do you remember my saying, in an earlier post, that this new information and discussion was an unwanted epiphany for me? Like you, this new information is creating problems for my model building.
I'd like to have a c.1901-1909 caboose without cupola in Sn3. Overland Models produced a small run of DSP&P waycars in Sn3, along with a much larger run of various modern cabooses. The even offered a few factory painted, lettered for the C&S:
Overland did a nice rendition of the original South Park way car body, but placed it on the "modern" underframe from the other short body cabooses. The paint job was pretty good, but the block lettering seems too small for most un-rebuilt first decade cars in the few photographs available. Then they went and gave it a factory number of "73" from the 1880's, instead of a 300-series number of the first decade!
Let's turn this around and see if you can suggest a new number for my "caboose that never was"; a short original body that was rebuilt with a modern underframe, but had no cupola added and had the block lettering.
I have a second, unpainted Overland model that I want to convert to an earlier car, c.1901, based on the Braddocks photo, lettered with the early Roman lettering, as on the 306 photograph:
I want to redo the smoke jack and add that odd cylinder like vent on top, add curved caboose grabs to the bottom corner, and scratch build a new underframe using a 3-D printed part from a Shapeways vendor:
https://www.shapeways.com/product/25UZMCDDX/dsp-p-waycar-running-gear-sn3?optionId=40675954
The 3-D print is of the 9 foot underframe, as under 306. If the short body cars carried original underframes until the 1908-1912 rebuild, then I'm screwed, my plan thwarted. I have no idea what the underframe looked like nor how to model it.
So maybe that's why I cling to the idea that at least the 308 / 1006 had a 9 foot "intermediate" underframe applied by 1899 and well before the 1908 rebuilding program began. Self interest! I can follow my original plan and rationalize it as 306 as it appeared in 1901, based on the folio drawing alone.
BTW, if any of you HOn3 modelers hanker to build a model of 306, I have a pair of HOn3 versions of the underframe print, that Shapeways printed and mailed to me by mistake. Let me know if you'd like one, I have two sets. Free--if you've bothered to wade through this long and convoluted thread.
URL: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/the-caboose-that-never-was-tp8369p9461.html
One thing-- with respect to the "intermediate" 9 ft undercarriage, I'm confused as to why you listed 308/1006 as having had an intermediate undercarriage. The 1006 folio shows a 9 ft wheelbase, but couldn't that be the modern undercarriage? I believe we have only the one photo of 306 with the intermediate version on the C&S and predecessors, and at the moment, no early photo that is inconsistent with the shorter 6' 3" wheelbase.
My, my John!
For a guy participating in a mass conjecture, you're quite the stickler for details!
You're right, we only have one photograph for what I have labeled the "intermediate" underframe (for lack of a better term), that of 306 / 1005 taken about 1900-1901, that suggests a 9 foot underframe. But I would bet that 310 / 1008 had the same underframe applied. The two cars are so nearly identical, that I bet they were in the shops in the 1890's at about the same time, rebuilt as "twinsies".
As to 308 / 1006, you may be correct. The new caboose numbering scheme was devised in 1911, applied in early 1912. So the folio of 1006 must have been updated no earlier than 1911. By that date, the car might have been completely rebuilt to the modern configuration, and the new, modern undercarriage of 9 foot wheel base annotated to the drawing--they may not have bothered changing the image (as they did on the 1007 folio)--may not have drawn in the new end cupola, nor erased one of the side windows. But they did redraw the wheels to the 9 foot wheel base!
Do you remember my saying, in an earlier post, that this new information and discussion was an unwanted epiphany for me? Like you, this new information is creating problems for my model building.
I'd like to have a c.1901-1909 caboose without cupola in Sn3. Overland Models produced a small run of DSP&P waycars in Sn3, along with a much larger run of various modern cabooses. The even offered a few factory painted, lettered for the C&S:
Overland did a nice rendition of the original South Park way car body, but placed it on the "modern" underframe from the other short body cabooses. The paint job was pretty good, but the block lettering seems too small for most un-rebuilt first decade cars in the few photographs available. Then they went and gave it a factory number of "73" from the 1880's, instead of a 300-series number of the first decade!
Let's turn this around and see if you can suggest a new number for my "caboose that never was"; a short original body that was rebuilt with a modern underframe, but had no cupola added and had the block lettering.
I have a second, unpainted Overland model that I want to convert to an earlier car, c.1901, based on the Braddocks photo, lettered with the early Roman lettering, as on the 306 photograph:
I want to redo the smoke jack and add that odd cylinder like vent on top, add curved caboose grabs to the bottom corner, and scratch build a new underframe using a 3-D printed part from a Shapeways vendor:
https://www.shapeways.com/product/25UZMCDDX/dsp-p-waycar-running-gear-sn3?optionId=40675954
The 3-D print is of the 9 foot underframe, as under 306. If the short body cars carried original underframes until the 1908-1912 rebuild, then I'm screwed, my plan thwarted. I have no idea what the underframe looked like nor how to model it.
So maybe that's why I cling to the idea that at least the 308 / 1006 had a 9 foot "intermediate" underframe applied by 1899 and well before the 1908 rebuilding program began. Self interest! I can follow my original plan and rationalize it as 306 as it appeared in 1901, based on the folio drawing alone.
BTW, if any of you HOn3 modelers hanker to build a model of 306, I have a pair of HOn3 versions of the underframe print, that Shapeways printed and mailed to me by mistake. Let me know if you'd like one, I have two sets. Free--if you've bothered to wade through this long and convoluted thread.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
Poulsbo, WA
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