Re: Short wheel base South Park / C&S cabooses.

Posted by Jim Courtney on
URL: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/the-caboose-that-never-was-tp8369p9424.html

 . . . helping to liberate me from the impossible task of building only and precisely what WAS.

That is the rub isn't it, no one knows "precisely what WAS."

These last several posts of yours and mine are causing me to have an unwanted epiphany!

I've always assumed that the original South Park cabooses, before the 1908 rebuilding program, had strange under carriages (with the odd, centrally sprung and equalized running gear), but none-the-less had a wheel base of 9 feet. Out of curiosity I googled "DSP&P caboose" and clicked on the "images" tab.  Every set of drawings, every scratch built model and every commercial offering for the cabooses in the original configuration appear to have a long, 9 foot wheel base.

But did they really?? What if everyone just assumed the original wheel base was the same as the modern 9' wheel base and everything we thought we knew was wrong.

The Folio 27 drawing indicates that at least one of the first batch of cars built for the South Park, before the UP took control, had a wheel base of 6' 3" (DSP&P numbers 62-67 of 1880-1881). These would be the cars that show up in early photos as painted a dark color, possibly red or brown.

You've convinced me that the Blackhawk caboose, 313, still had a short 6' 3" wheel base as late as 1907, just before the rebuilding program began. This car was of the last batch built, 79-82, built in 1884, probably built in Omaha by the UP.

If cars from the first and last batches of South Park cabooses had short wheel base undercarriages, why would we think that the cars in the 2nd and 3rd batches (68-73, built 1882 and 74-78, built 1883) would be any different?

Consider:

http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll21/id/7141/rec/118



An 1884 view of a short South Park freight crossing Keith's trestle on the Highline, approaching Leadville. Caboose number is not legible but the solid end steps suggest it is of the 2nd or 3rd batch. There sure seems to be a large gap between the rear wheel and the rear step. Is this a short wheel base car??



http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll21/id/9869/rec/167



An 1884 freight descending the west side of Alpine Pass near Woodstock. A caboose numbered in the 7x series is hiding in the trees. Again there is a big gap between the rear wheel and end step. Another short wheel base caboose, of the 2nd or 3rd batch??



http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll21/id/12601/rec/156



An 1886 view of the Jackson photography special in Platte Canon, with a great view of DSP&P 72 (second batch). Jeff Young's river willows obscure the under frame.  I cannot see any hint of a rear wheel set ahead of the far rear caboose step. Another short wheel base car??




Ed and Nancy Bathke Collection in Schoppe and Mather, Summit County's Narrow-Gauge Railroads, page 30.


A South Park or DL&G caboose on the rear of a work train, retrieving the derailed rotary on Boreas Pass, near Baker Tank. c1890-1895. Again, the visible rear axle seems set pretty far forward of the rear caboose steps.  Another short wheel base car??



The only photo of a South Park caboose with original under frame and an obvious long (near 9 foot) wheel base, is the photo of 306 (later 1005) posted above. This perfect right angle view was probably used by draftsmen (like Derrell) to obtain proportions for the original under frames in all of the published plans. This car would fit in the original sequence as South Park number 69, a second batch car. But it may well have been an 1890's rebuild or new build replacement for a wrecked or otherwise vacated early car. Perhaps that was when the center cupola and quarter round corners came from.

Having re-read all of Derrell's "Eight Wheel Caboose . . ." thread, Derrell make a good case that none of the surviving modern cabooses where cars from foreign roads, all were originally built for the South Park, though there may have been a lot of re-building vs new-building in the 1890s.

Then there is the Folio 27 drawing of 1006, originally South Park 73, last car in the second batch. It is shown as a 9 foot wheel base car prior to rebuild.  But was it originally?? Was this another 1890's rebuild of the under frame?  Were there others?


I would hope that others would opine and/or share any pre-1908 caboose photos that you might have.  Chris, do you have a good copy of the 1886 Jackson photo of the Mason Bogie 42 and caboose 72 stopped at Webster??

And what say you, Ron Rudnick?