Desperately Seeking Signals: The Saga Of The Train Order Board

Posted by Chris Walker on Oct 29, 2016; 11:31am
URL: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/Desperately-Seeking-Signals-The-Saga-Of-The-Train-Order-Board-tp6678.html

This is in reply C-SN3  to http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Denver-to-Como-td6568.html
and also in reply NGDF  to http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,318592,318795#msg-318795

My fellow Enginedriver and I will take a good hard look for these as after all, Signals are our Bread and Butter, misinterpret an indication and some-one may die.

Como,
CHS-B255

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll21/id/3682/rv/singleitem/rec/5

X-7522

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/5112/rv/singleitem/rec/26


Park County Archives


Greg Kazel Collection
http://www.narrowgauge.org/ngc/html/excursion4/gkazel/excursion4-como.html





 http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,295387,295470#msg-295470


http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,295387,295502#msg-295502
 

Throughout the numerous Droste Blog Como Depot posts there remains a fixation on there being a TO Board of the Banner "Swift" type on the "Depot" at the corner of 19th and Wykoop Streets in Denver about 1881/1882, that is not visible to me.  The notion of the "Semaphore" as John repeatedly calls it, doesn't sit with me in the following....

Looking at the "appearance" of Banner boards in old photographs taken at various angles and under various lighting conditions one cannot always rely on the round and square holes to be visible at all times.

At the time under discussion, Denver was a terminal, the break of gauge (in Australian parlance) where the SG and NG lines met.  

Passengers actually had to change trains as there were no through trains to the "West" so therefore I see no need for a train order board to signal trains to stop for orders.

It was my understanding that Orders were delivered by Messengers at Terminals and Division points, only at intermediate stations did the Operator pass along orders.

The Siding in front of the Building at 19th & Wynkoop in the WHJackson pano is SG, there is no 3rd rail visible to even suggest it be a D&RG siding.

The D&RG at that time was still NG as can be seen by the tracks headed South down Wynkoop.  1881 was the start of adding a 3rd rail by the D&RG Denver to Bessemer.
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/84035/rv/singleitem

Denver in 1881 Jackson Pano annotated "summer of 1882" pic August 11, 2015 note there are no switchstands visible, all groundthrows?? note I can easily make out Street Gaslights, Barber's Pole but still do not see a TO board.
 
I really have to ask myself  "How come there would be a TO Board there while there aren't any anywhere else on the fledgling DSP&P, for instance take the Hortense "Toy" Depot, clearly shown in Mal Ferrell's The South Park Line pg 69 with DSP&PRR "Dillon" alongside, no TOB mounted and yet a later view shows one in Pict. Sup. to DSP&P does.  This same book (SPL) also has a picture taken at Alpine Tunnel before the Passing Track was put in showing the stone Sectionhouse and Enginehouse along with the wooden Telegraph Office we all know so well but no Banner.

The Depot at Forks Creek doesn't show a Banner until after the new Steel Truss bridge is in place there.

Z-11785

http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/88627/rv/singleitem

Earliest Sanborn 1887 Fire map of Denver with orientation to the above picture

Mal Ferrell graciously sent this wonderful picture of the Union Depot with the early control point as shown on the 1887 Sanborn map above.  The only picture of the early days to show any signal of such I might add. Please note the above Signals are what I am used to as Starting or Directing Signals: I do not mean these to be thought of as Train Order signals.

I sure appreciate the time that Mal has put into this with me.

from the Collection of Mallory Hope Ferrell.

As this has been rather intiguing as to what was used for TO signals, here is a look at Depots along the DSP&P at or about the same timeframe.  The alert reader will soon see a pattern emerging here...

London Jct.(Alma)
Z-5724

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/72111/rv/singleitem/rec/1

Alpine 
MCC-3260

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/30814/rv/singleitem/rec/6

Hancock before moved to Romley

http://www.narro wgauge.org/ngc/graphics/tkierscey/dspp/dspp0048.jpg


Nathrop...yes I realise this is the D&RG side .....
C-155

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/76332/rv/singleitem/rec/1

Nathrop looking South

Photo From and Courtesy of Mallory Hope Ferrell collection.

These two picture show a Lamp-post that to me would be used to signal trains, not illuminate the platform, the location is incongrous for that purpose.  Wall mounted as at Forks Creek  before the Steel Bridge maybe.

Buena VistaD&RG/DSP&P Joint depot

Salida Centennial Archive

Webster

http://www.narrowgauge.org/images/tkcok/m00101.jpg

Salida, a comparison with gaslights at and note no TO Board either
CHS.J2147

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll21/id/8203/rv/singleitem/rec/53

Marshall Pass

Salida Centennial Photo archive

More Depots without TO Boards
Leadville (original)  I don't recall seeing a picture showing a board on the DL&G/C&S brick Depot either.
CHS.X4464

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll21/id/10012/rv/singleitem/rec/2

Blackhawk on the Colorado Central
X-2007

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/78689/rv/singleitem/rec/16

My Favourite Place, if you haven't worked this out already  

from the Idaho Springs Historical Soc.

Idaho Springs  (without) Dating this as 1886 to prior to 1890 based on the Sampling Works present and no Mott Mill,
the I.S. Depot is also in the light paint scheme with no Brick building immediately West of that.

WHJ-858

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/41181/rv/singleitem

Idaho Springs (with) just for comparison.  Just so you know what to look for.
Z-2800

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/67650/rv/singleitem

Morrison clearest illustration but in C&S days
Z-2835
 http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/68321/rv/singleitem/rec/24
 
Sunset
X-13748

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/12783/rv/singleitem/rec/3

Palmer Lake
X-12916
 
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/11926/rv/singleitem/rec/6

Cascade Canon Colo. Mid. Has lampbox on post similar to Nathrop and B.V.
H-208

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/72530/rv/singleitem/rec/527

Alamosa (original)
X-6435
 
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/1756/rv/singleitem/rec/101

*** Notations:: 
W.C. Nunn's Patent Railway Telegraph Train Order Signal was 1875.
The neotype Swift Train order Signal Patent of 1878   http://www.google.com/patents/US199384

Train Order Signal use of dates 1884 onward, prior to this, the simple Flag and Lamp was used to signal trains by hand.
see:  Trains and Technology: The American Railroad in the Nineteenth Century, Volume 4 pg179
https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=tbtdcXXnq5kC&pg=PP2&lpg=PP2&dq=the+american+railroad+in+the+nineteenth+century+volume+4&source=bl&ots=AxGnELlIGy&sig=ZlJyhHn6WQN_VtH8VIclXxnPMS0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjFq8_c8YXQAhWLF5QKHZN4AHwQ6AEIMTAG#v=onepage&q=the%20american%20railroad%20in%20the%20nineteenth%20century%20volume%204&f=false

Earliest picture that shows an Order Board on a DSP&P Depot...David S. Digerness in The Mineral Belt V-I dates this as 1887, the WH Jackson Special
Webster
CHS.J3912


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll21/id/12604/rv/singleitem/rec/25

Something I don't see being asked is,

Why a TOboard on an out of service Depot, in an area under control of a Terminal Super. when the purported relocated Depot to Como doesn't show one for a number of years,  and that any of the intermediate stations along the line at or after the 1881(2) Jackson Pano do not show any Banner boards?  That doesn't make sense!

Was there any damage to the adjacent Como Depot from the Pacific Hotel Fire?  There apparently was a Lean-to vestibule visible on the Northwall in the Hotel fire photo pg247 of Mac Poor's DSP&P.


While I find all these building details interesting as regards to poor workmanship and mismatched items, I can't for the life of me figure out just why the Depot wasn't built new on the spot just like all the other Depots.  
Is there more to this story than let on?  
What has the BV Depot got to do with the Como, it is mentioned a couple of times?
Could it be so far back in time that we will just never know?
All will be revealed on the next episode of Soap