Re: DSP&P Passenger Car Research

Posted by Dave Eggleston on Mar 24, 2025; 10:47pm
URL: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/DSP-P-Passenger-Car-Research-tp20585p20622.html

Tundracamper wrote

 I would not have thought about “excursion” vs “observation.”  

Welcome to the murky dreamland of South Park/Colorado Central equipment! The terms seem interchangeable and this is worsened by the general public calling railroad cars many things the railroads themselves didn't. And this was carried forth by historian authors which then enshrined terms in the broader South Park mythology that persists for many reasons. It's not a one-versus-the-other but a mixed soup of terms created from a mix of documents and gaps in documentation, left percolating over 140 years.

Out of curiosity I did a quick dive. Sorry if this runs long but I wanted to find specific company references, hoping for clarity. Ha!

It seems, at least officially, "Excursion" or "Excursion, coach" were used by the UP (1884-1889), the UP-controlled UPD&G (1890-1893) and the Trumbull-controlled UPD&G (1894-1898).  (Sources: 1884-1893 UP Annual Reports, 1885 UP Renumbering, 1887 Report to the Pacific Railway Commission, 1889 UP Roster of Engines, Plows and the 1890-1898 ORER listings).

These listed cars are the six official purpose-built 1883 Colorado Central excursion cars, not converted flats. All lasted into the C&S era. I can't yet find evidence of a DSP&P/DL&G purpose-built excursion car. For several reasons, all likely financial, the South Park borrowed CCRR cars or resorted to putting homebuilt removable superstructures and benches on flats, removing them when not needed. Economical and useful in keeping cars running all year. Modeler's aside: a South Park flatcar so converted would be a nice model.

Between 1884 and 1889 a lot of South Park cars and engines were moved by the UP to more profitable and busy lines such as the U&N. Then the flow reversed around 1889 until 1893 bringing back South Park cars to the DL&G as well adding in others from recently-standard-gauged UP subsidiaries (U&N, KC, OSL). This left the South Park with a lot of cars it didn't need. It doesn't seem any excursion cars were part of this equipment shift. Modeler's aside: It would be cool to have a KC- or U&N-lettered flat with a convertible excursion roof and benches. Might've actually happened.

For completeness, I turned to the Original Railroad Equipment Registers, a monthly "book" listing equipment on every railroad in interchange business. The DL&G is only listed from 1891 to 1894 and includes no excursion cars. But from June 1890 to May 1898 the ORER lists the UPD&G excursion cars (the six 1883 cars) as "Excursion." Another plug for the term.

All good, right? Wait for it...the C&S formation muddies the water. In early 1899 (at least Feb if not Jan) the brand new C&S has these six 1883 cars listed in the ORER as "Observation," and that term holds in each ORER issue to at least 1917. Meanwhile, the 1900-1908 C&S Annual Reports call out the cars as "Excursion Coaches" then around 1910 they are lumped into the passenger category "Other Cars." Why the ORER changed the terms is a mystery to me.

Final data point on this period: Derrell Poole in the NG Pictorial Vol VII lists the cars as "Excursion Coaches." I don't know his source for choosing that term but have no doubt it is based on C&S documentation.

I have not found an official C&S document listing them as "observation" but my focus is pre-C&S and I have few documents to dig further on that.

In the end, I lean to "excursion" as more official, at least before 1911. The company documentation I have access to leans completely in that direction. But sadly things have been mixed up and we have to wade through the variations. I do hope someone proves I'm wrong!