Re: Draft Layout Plans: Black Hawk C&S / Gilpin Tram

Posted by drgwcs on Mar 05, 2025; 5:26pm
URL: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/Draft-Layout-Plans-Black-Hawk-C-S-Gilpin-Tram-tp20518p20546.html

Dave Eggleston wrote

Jim,

I'd be not so quick to say the photos are conclusive evidence the flume was rebuilt. Why? Something just doesn't feel right in the details of those valuation photos when compared to other photos of 1937-1940.

The problem is the flume washout created a distinct landscape that clearly shows in railfan photos dated from mid-1937 through 1940. These railfan photos clearly show bad devastation--the flume is blown out, the depot has its ramp bridges across the open creek, trackage is washed away. You can find these photos in Klinger's Clear Creek book, CRM Annual 10, the C&S equipment pictorials (VIII and IX), Ferrell C&Sng, DSP&P Pictorial Supplement, Diggerness V3 and of course DPL's Otto Perry collection.

When exactly was the washout? I know the area around the depot was intact in July 1932 when two photos of the Central City Opera House special train crowd were taken (found in CRM Annual 10, the C&S equipment pictorial VI, and Ferrell's C&Sng). I do know there were bad floods in July 1933, March 1935 and August 1935, per the newspapers but no damage specifics are given. I have found no reports of a flood in 1936 or 1937, at least nothing devastating. Photos in this time are rare.

And then starting mid-1937 the railfans show up and their photos until 1940 show the devastation. The valuation photos in the Colorado Central book (pp 179-181) show none of the destruction, just an intact or rebuilt scene suggesting repair work underway or planned. Was the flume repaired in 1939, only to almost immediately wash out again? Or are we seeing repairs after the 1933 or 1935 floods? I have no idea. Note that the ore dock is in place in the upper photo on page 179--when was that built?

Then I wonder: Are the dates given in the railfan photo captions correct? That would be a pretty extensive issue in figuring all this out. This definitely is a fuzzy period, there is so little documentation but from what I do know things don't fit nicely enough, or are missing, to date the valuation pictures as 1939. I may well be wrong and the valuation photos are dated properly and something happened--repairs and disaster or misdated railfan images or...?

For now, without having access to the Greg Lepak collection photos, I lean to the flume blowout being before mid-1937 and not repaired. To that point I'll add the expense of doing so at that point in the line's history. Think about how bad finances were, the line's under constant attempt at abandonment, the expense of that work. As I type this I nervously expect to see someone pop up with the silver bullet. Maybe an AFE. I hope so!

A key could be the cars seen in the photos, on pages 178, 179 and 180. But this may not be conclusive. I don't know cars, so posting to see if they can be identified.

Yea there is a reason I shifted my date earlier......although with some of the structures not early enough. This era is rather confusing- Machines of Iron has a still of the depot with the ramps in color but it is not dated. The color is pretty bad and grainy. There are however in this and at least a couple of others big beams on the platform. These could either be ties or lumber to rebuild the flume. It would make more sense to unload ties closer to where they would be needed.



The valuation photo dating I assumed to be correct, just for the fact you would think at least it would be correctly dated??  Some of the wood at the station does look newer but in B&W it is hard to tell. The angle does not show if there is a contrast to the older wood. Do we know why the C&S did the valuation- for abandonment, taxes, road construction etc?  The presence of the crane in one shot is also interesting. It is however definitely not the same one that was in the placer mining pit later- the boom is different. I haven't compared it to the road construction ones yet.

The cars would be pretty key- the problem with cars of this era is that they are lot like the modern SUV's they all look very similar. The one by the side of the boiler works is the newest. The fuzzyness of the closeup makes it really hard to tell the specific model. Then there was the fact the body styles continued for 3-4 years with minor front end changes.

However- there were some pretty major changes across all the manufacturers that happened about 1935-36. 34 Fords GM's and Chrysler's are pretty blocky in their windshields and to a lesser extent in the contours in the back. In 35 Ford started rounding out around the windshield and 36 got even more rounded. In 36 GM introduced much more rounded body styles. These continued till 39 (My dad had a Chevy Humpback coupe that was a 39 that was identical to the 37 except some minor grill changes)   Plymouth rounded out in 35 and 35, Chrysler in 36 with the airstream. The minor makes lagged a bit. The car is definitely mid 30' and above although from the picture we are not going to identify the specifics. It does however look more GM. The Chevys Pontiacs and Buicks used similar style bodies. Another thing to note is that the car appears to have a turret top (sold rather than a fabric insert) This was introduced by GM in 1935- Ford and Plymouth followed suit in 1936 and 37.
37 Buick

35 Buick for comparison- pretty big difference in style and has the roof insert

Not sure everything will ever get a definitive answer.