Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?
Posted by Derrell Poole on
URL: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/Eight-wheel-Caboose-on-C-Sng-tp488p1825.html
UPD&G sg Cabooses existing as of Feb. 1891 - 1735 to 1745 (11)
Built new at Omaha March 1891 - 1746 to 1751 (Correspondence - Record)
ORER as of Nov. 1891(UPD&G):
CC - 1735 to 1745 (11); New Numbers - 1735 to 1745
DT&FW - 38 (1); New Number - 1746*
DT&FW - 39 (1); New Number - 1753
DT&FW - 28 to 30 & 32 to 37 (9); New Numbers - 1765 to 1774
DT&G - 2101 to 2111 (11); New Numbers - 1754 to 1764
UPD&G - 1747 to 1752 (11); New Numbers - 1747 to 1752
Consecutively:
1735 to 1745; the original CC cars
1746 ; formerly DT&FW 39*
1747 to 1752; the balance of (7 total) cars built new by Omaha in 3-'91
retained by UPD&G
1753; formerly DT&FW 39
1754 to 1764; Formerly DT&G cars that were originally D&NO cars**
1765 to 1774; formerly DT&FW 28 to 37 (less 31)***
* Contradiction to letter Correspondence between W.H. Holcomb, UP assistant general manager in Omaha, Colorado Division superintendent P. Touhy & F.E. Bissell, New Mexico Division superintendent where 1746 was the 1st car built at Omaha in 3-'91 and apparently conveyed to DT&FW.
**So it would seem the D&NO Cabooses were indeed reno'd to the UPD&G as previously suggested. This group included 2106. However my theory that this car became 1782 is false and none of the cars could have been a former D&NO car.
*** No accounting for 31 in the ORER and the listing indicates 9 cars even tho there are 10 numeral place holders! Was there no car 1768? In the C&S Reno'g Guide the sg cabooses are renumbered 200 - 242 (43cars). Since the UPD&G was in the process of renumbering the 1735 series to 2 digit figures (2 to 60 ?) and 15 cars had been renumbered it is not possible to tell if 1768 was filled.
Clearly only 6 or 7 new cars came from Omaha as new builds. Beyond this group cars may have been rebuilt boxcars. Hol Wagner notes; "It was common, even before formation of the C&S, to convert boxcars into cabooses, either permanently or for short term use. A pre-C&S example: UPD&G boxcar 26789 was rebuilt into caboose 26789 at Trinidad on December 11, 1897. Unless it was subsequently assigned a UPD&G caboose number, it did not come to the C&S as a caboose."
Well. Be that as it may, 1786 was on the roster well before the end of 1897. Rebuilt boxcar 26789 could have only been a filler car for a missing number in order to turn into a C&S caboose. There were 52 numeral place holders but only 42 cars by 1898 (and 43 by C&S reno'g.).
The question then is; where did the UPD&G get no.s 1775 - 1786 if they did not either build the cars new or convert boxcars? Maybe one of them was the OSL dinky baggie? But not all 12 of them. Car 1781 was the highest number listed in Nov. 1894 ORER. Between that point and some time in 1895, 1782 was added. If the UPD&G purchased 1601 after Jan. 1895 it could have also purchased the baggage car putting the bobber on its ng roster as 1727 and the baggie on the sg roster as 1782. (I could not tell you how long the Como car is as I've never even seen it - only the photos shown here. Since I'm 1000 miles away in MT it seems unlikely I'll get to that soon - maybe someone local can run up there with a chain?)
If they returned the 1601 where would they get the car for DL&G 15xx? Yes. The letter dated 25 Jan. 1895 listed 1601 along with DL&G 1507, 1508, 1514 & 1518.
Now. You will notice right away that the idea that 1005 (1507 / 306) and 1008 (1514 / 310) came from anywhere but the DSP&P is all but shot to hell since both cars are among this inventory listing - UNLESS they became DL&G property prior to 1895 and were already shoe-horned into the roster as fillers. And where would they have come from? The U&N? The KC? (Were the KC cars 4 wheelers?)
You've shared that the ORER indicated the OSLng bobbers were on line or at least still owned by the OSL. You bring up another possibility - even if the car was off line the Railroad would have kept track of it and, on paper at least, renumbered it (presumably to 200 - was 599 formerly the missing 1600?). Perhaps this simply suggests that 1727 was counted on the UPD&G roster as their intended car but then correctly removed and replaced with 1782. The DL&G could have eventually purchased 1601 (200) prior to 6-'98 directly from the OSL. Crazy stuff but worthy of consideration. How many U&N 4 wheeled cars were there?
Let us review the rules here (again); the ORERs were notoriously behind the ongoing changes to every roster - you've pointed out sometimes by more than a year - and they were not always accurate. So we are both building our huts on sand. Still there is enough good information there to see what generally turned out to be the case. I say this to remind the casual reader.
And - Yes. Trumble was very much on top of things he knew about. But there were many instances where he did not know "about". He was, after all, the President - not the Auditor (who was perpetually adjusting the books to correct errant entries!) or Superintendent who often didn't know "about" either. We are dealing with humans, after all... and there is a LOT of paper missing.