Chris Walker's Idaho Springs freight cars of c.1902
Posted by Jim Courtney on
URL: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/Chris-Walker-s-Idaho-Springs-freight-cars-of-c-1902-tp18152.html
Chris was able to enlarge and clean up a photo of a string of TOTC C&S freight cars on a siding and spur in Idaho Springs c.1900-1902. We had a lengthy discussion about the identity of the cars on another thread some time ago: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/D-RG-D-RGW-Freight-Car-Information-tp11167p11240.html
These new enlargements by Chris provide an incredible amount of new info on early C&S freight cars. The enlargements solve one freight car mystery, while creating two new mysteries. For the sake of discussion, I have further enlarged, cropped and played with the individual photos.
OK, first freight car, first mystery. Working from left to right (west to east):
At left is a boxcar in the "Colorado Road" lettering, with a car number that I read as "7000". So what's the mystery?? Every C&S roster that I've ever seen lists C&S 7000 as a 27 foot stock car! According to Derrell Poole and Ron Rudnick, C&S 7000 was originally a DSP&P 26- foot, 10- ton stock car built by the UP Omaha shops in 1882, one of 9 cars, numbered DSP&P 18000-18008.
Derrell, in his C&S Connection plans for the inherited stock cars noted that the South Park stock cars were rebuilt c.1894, along with Colorado Central 27-foot stock cars, also constructed by the UP in 1882, into an identical class of 27 foot, 12-ton stock cars, riding on 12-ton Litchfield style trucks. All these cars were renumbered C&S 7000-7014 after 1899.
So WTH, how is stock car 7000 now a boxcar about 1902?? One possibility is that when the C&S took delivery of the 50 St Charles (by then AC&F) 30-foot stock cars in the Spring of 1900, the small inherited stock cars became obsolete. The C&S shops may have rebuilt one or more of the 27 foot stock cars to boxcars. The 7000 in the photo above still has the typical 1890s white upper fascia boards--perhaps the stock car was just sheathed over the stock car posts and diagonal braces, the roof untouched.
The other possibility is that I'm misreading the number--if I squint just right, the number could be C&S 7600.
Edit: Ron Rudnick's roster of freight cars at the inception of the C&S shows car series 7554-7615 to be former Kansas Central 27-foot, 14-ton boxcars built by the UP in 1883-84. This group of KC boxcars was transferred to the DL&G when the KC was standard gauged. So, if the car number in the photo is really 7600, there is no mystery.
So, take your best look at the still blurry number and you decide between the two possibilities.
________________________________________
Next boxcar, second new mystery. The boxcar still carries UPD&G lettering. The first digit of the car number is hidden behind the open door, but is likely 25147. The UPD&G had two classes of boxcars listed in the rosters at the inception of the C&S. Series 24600-24664, records indicate that these 27 foot, 14 ton UP built cars were transferred to the UPD&G when the Kansas Central was standard gauged. According to Ron Rudnick, in his UPD&G / DL&G Modeling Guide, the KC cars were lettered like this when transferred to the UPD&G:
In Rudnick's UPD&G / DL&G Moeling guide, page 21.
The other UPD&G boxcars were a variety of old Colorado Central 24 foot boxcars, clumped together in numbers 26500-26600.
So, 'splain to me how a boxcar numbered UPD&G 25147 shows up in Idaho Springs, when no such car exists on the rosters?? My only explanation is that there were UP system narrow gauge boxcars carrying numbers in the 25100-25203 series--these were the original Kansas Central 27 foot boxcar numbers prior to transfer to the UPD&G. Ron Rudnick, in the text of his Modeling Guide, states that there is evidence of 6-12 KC boxcars showing up in Colorado "off the books", not recorded in the rosters of boxcar transfers. So IMHO, UPD&G 25147 is one such car, never renumbered from its KC number, but eventually lettered for the UPD&G.
Please opine if you have another explanation.
_________________________________________
Next up, two more boxcars, and a mystery solved:
The car at left is not a D&RG car nor one of the 28 foot St Charles boxcars acquired in the spring of 1898, as we variously opined in an earlier thread (http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/D-RG-D-RGW-Freight-Car-Information-tp11167p11240.html). Nope, just a 27 foot UP built boxcar with an atypical early C&S lettering scheme. We've seen this lettering scheme before: http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll21/id/3661/rec/56
"Colo. & So." 7584 is listed as one of the Kansas Central UP-built 27 foot boxcars transferred to the DL&G, C&S series 7554-7615. So it is a sister to UPD&G 25147 discussed upthread. I have a stash of Bill Meredith's 27 foot boxcar kits, one is going to be lettered for this car, if I can find an ampersand ("&") of the right size to match my decal sets.
The boxcar to the right, C&S 7222 is another camera shy first decade C&S boxcar. It is one of the UP built 24-foot boxcars of 1880, constructed for the Colorado Central. These cars were renumbered to C&S 7213-7271 in 1899. I have a Cimarron Works laser cut kit for this series of cars and will try to letter it like this one.
_________________________________
To the right of the boxcars are two 30 foot coal cars:
C&S 4814 is one of the Peninsular 30 foot coal cars of 1884. Note the tapered side sills and the extra stake pockets, centered between the stakes. In 1899, these cars were assigned numbers 4793-4997.
To the right is one of the St Charles 3-board coal cars, 86 cars of 25-ton capacity, first order built for the UPD&G in the March / April of 1897, with a second group delivered in early 1898. Originally numbered UPD&G 3930-4015, this group of cars were renumbered to C&S 4000-4086, and re-lettered in the "Colorado Road' scheme.
___________________________________
Moving east, coal cars and a boxcar:
All four coal cars in this photo are St Charles 4-board, 30-foot, 25-ton coal cars delivered in December of 1898, just before the C&S emerged from the receiverships. The only legible car number is C&S 4217, at the left frame, still in its factory paint and lettering. The coal car to the right, next to the box car, has been re-lettered into the Colorado Road scheme. The two cars on the spur in the foreground also carry factory lettering.
The box car at the right frame is C&S 7677, one of the 30-foot, 20-ton Peninsular box cars built for the DSP&P in 1884. On the C&S these cars were assigned numbers 7616-7721, they remained in service until the mid-19teens.
_________________________________________
If any one has other thoughts or see obvious screw ups in my thinking, please post them.
URL: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/Chris-Walker-s-Idaho-Springs-freight-cars-of-c-1902-tp18152.html
Chris was able to enlarge and clean up a photo of a string of TOTC C&S freight cars on a siding and spur in Idaho Springs c.1900-1902. We had a lengthy discussion about the identity of the cars on another thread some time ago: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/D-RG-D-RGW-Freight-Car-Information-tp11167p11240.html
These new enlargements by Chris provide an incredible amount of new info on early C&S freight cars. The enlargements solve one freight car mystery, while creating two new mysteries. For the sake of discussion, I have further enlarged, cropped and played with the individual photos.
OK, first freight car, first mystery. Working from left to right (west to east):
At left is a boxcar in the "Colorado Road" lettering, with a car number that I read as "7000". So what's the mystery?? Every C&S roster that I've ever seen lists C&S 7000 as a 27 foot stock car! According to Derrell Poole and Ron Rudnick, C&S 7000 was originally a DSP&P 26- foot, 10- ton stock car built by the UP Omaha shops in 1882, one of 9 cars, numbered DSP&P 18000-18008.
Derrell, in his C&S Connection plans for the inherited stock cars noted that the South Park stock cars were rebuilt c.1894, along with Colorado Central 27-foot stock cars, also constructed by the UP in 1882, into an identical class of 27 foot, 12-ton stock cars, riding on 12-ton Litchfield style trucks. All these cars were renumbered C&S 7000-7014 after 1899.
So WTH, how is stock car 7000 now a boxcar about 1902?? One possibility is that when the C&S took delivery of the 50 St Charles (by then AC&F) 30-foot stock cars in the Spring of 1900, the small inherited stock cars became obsolete. The C&S shops may have rebuilt one or more of the 27 foot stock cars to boxcars. The 7000 in the photo above still has the typical 1890s white upper fascia boards--perhaps the stock car was just sheathed over the stock car posts and diagonal braces, the roof untouched.
The other possibility is that I'm misreading the number--if I squint just right, the number could be C&S 7600.
Edit: Ron Rudnick's roster of freight cars at the inception of the C&S shows car series 7554-7615 to be former Kansas Central 27-foot, 14-ton boxcars built by the UP in 1883-84. This group of KC boxcars was transferred to the DL&G when the KC was standard gauged. So, if the car number in the photo is really 7600, there is no mystery.
So, take your best look at the still blurry number and you decide between the two possibilities.
________________________________________
Next boxcar, second new mystery. The boxcar still carries UPD&G lettering. The first digit of the car number is hidden behind the open door, but is likely 25147. The UPD&G had two classes of boxcars listed in the rosters at the inception of the C&S. Series 24600-24664, records indicate that these 27 foot, 14 ton UP built cars were transferred to the UPD&G when the Kansas Central was standard gauged. According to Ron Rudnick, in his UPD&G / DL&G Modeling Guide, the KC cars were lettered like this when transferred to the UPD&G:
In Rudnick's UPD&G / DL&G Moeling guide, page 21.
The other UPD&G boxcars were a variety of old Colorado Central 24 foot boxcars, clumped together in numbers 26500-26600.
So, 'splain to me how a boxcar numbered UPD&G 25147 shows up in Idaho Springs, when no such car exists on the rosters?? My only explanation is that there were UP system narrow gauge boxcars carrying numbers in the 25100-25203 series--these were the original Kansas Central 27 foot boxcar numbers prior to transfer to the UPD&G. Ron Rudnick, in the text of his Modeling Guide, states that there is evidence of 6-12 KC boxcars showing up in Colorado "off the books", not recorded in the rosters of boxcar transfers. So IMHO, UPD&G 25147 is one such car, never renumbered from its KC number, but eventually lettered for the UPD&G.
Please opine if you have another explanation.
_________________________________________
Next up, two more boxcars, and a mystery solved:
The car at left is not a D&RG car nor one of the 28 foot St Charles boxcars acquired in the spring of 1898, as we variously opined in an earlier thread (http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/D-RG-D-RGW-Freight-Car-Information-tp11167p11240.html). Nope, just a 27 foot UP built boxcar with an atypical early C&S lettering scheme. We've seen this lettering scheme before: http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll21/id/3661/rec/56
"Colo. & So." 7584 is listed as one of the Kansas Central UP-built 27 foot boxcars transferred to the DL&G, C&S series 7554-7615. So it is a sister to UPD&G 25147 discussed upthread. I have a stash of Bill Meredith's 27 foot boxcar kits, one is going to be lettered for this car, if I can find an ampersand ("&") of the right size to match my decal sets.
The boxcar to the right, C&S 7222 is another camera shy first decade C&S boxcar. It is one of the UP built 24-foot boxcars of 1880, constructed for the Colorado Central. These cars were renumbered to C&S 7213-7271 in 1899. I have a Cimarron Works laser cut kit for this series of cars and will try to letter it like this one.
_________________________________
To the right of the boxcars are two 30 foot coal cars:
C&S 4814 is one of the Peninsular 30 foot coal cars of 1884. Note the tapered side sills and the extra stake pockets, centered between the stakes. In 1899, these cars were assigned numbers 4793-4997.
To the right is one of the St Charles 3-board coal cars, 86 cars of 25-ton capacity, first order built for the UPD&G in the March / April of 1897, with a second group delivered in early 1898. Originally numbered UPD&G 3930-4015, this group of cars were renumbered to C&S 4000-4086, and re-lettered in the "Colorado Road' scheme.
___________________________________
Moving east, coal cars and a boxcar:
All four coal cars in this photo are St Charles 4-board, 30-foot, 25-ton coal cars delivered in December of 1898, just before the C&S emerged from the receiverships. The only legible car number is C&S 4217, at the left frame, still in its factory paint and lettering. The coal car to the right, next to the box car, has been re-lettered into the Colorado Road scheme. The two cars on the spur in the foreground also carry factory lettering.
The box car at the right frame is C&S 7677, one of the 30-foot, 20-ton Peninsular box cars built for the DSP&P in 1884. On the C&S these cars were assigned numbers 7616-7721, they remained in service until the mid-19teens.
_________________________________________
If any one has other thoughts or see obvious screw ups in my thinking, please post them.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
Poulsbo, WA
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