The Leased D&RGW C-19s on the C&S Narrow Gauge

[Jim Courtney]

In Jeff's "Reefer Madness" thread, Fred (AKA OldBear) asked:

I have an MMI C19 of the type the C&S leased from the grande. When did they lease them? Or can I use poetic license as to when they were leased.?

I'll jump in here, others may correct any misstatements.  When C&S engines 73 and 75 were wrecked on Boreas Pass in January, 1936, the C&S was short of narrow gauge motive power.  Engine 60 was pulled from its Leadville switching duties and was used in road service. In addition, three C-19s were leased from the D&RGW, arriving in February, 1936, and used for the rest of the year.

As to poetic license, as Ken Martin pointed out, it's your railroad.

Some Otto Perry photos, all from September, 1936:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/46621/rec/3


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/46602/rec/1


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/46545/rec/2


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/46613/rec/4


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/46679/rec/2


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/46546/rec/10



The last two photos of 346 were taken in late September, 1936, after the C&S shops had repaired significant damage to the D&RGW engine, that was suffered when it rolled over on Kenosha pass in July of that year.

Anyone know when the C&S returned the C-19s to the D&RGW?

Anyone have photos of the engines in train service, outside of Denver?

[Lee Gustafson]

More C-19 questions, where were they used on the C&S? Any train orders exist with dates and locations, maybe crew names? Thanks in advance.

Lee Gustafson

[Oldbear52]

Thanks Jim for starting this thread. It answered my question immediately. I think I will have something to list on the swap. But then again, It's going to be my railroad and I just might run it as is as a loco coming over from the other road. Unless someone has some on30 moguls and cars to trade for it😃
The C19 is a nice engine and was the workhorse of our old Rio Grande Central, based onthe unfinished DSP&P/C&S line up Ohio creek.

[Keith Hayes]

Lee, I  believe the three locos were used extensively between Denver and Leadville.

[Jeff Young]

Keith Hayes wrote

Lee, I  believe the three locos were used extensively between Denver and Leadville.

That's my understanding too.  They were used right up to abandonment, and returned in 1937.

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Jim Courtney]

I've had a chance to do some reading and browsing photos in my books, and unearthed these C&S C-19 factoids:

The January, 1936, wreck of 73 and 75 must have constituted an emergency for the C&S, as the D&RGW C-19s were shipped to Denver on standard gauge flat cars and were ready for service on the C&S in February.

The D&RGW initially offered to lease a couple of K-27s, but the C&S felt the engines too heavy for the Platte Canon bridges and worn rail (A K-27 with Ridgeway stack, climbing Boreas Pass would have been an impressive sight, no?).

A photo in one of the Klingers' books show number 345 in a multi-engine rotary train at Baker's Tank in March, 1936, without a Ridgeway stack. The Ridgeways may not have been applied to the leased C-19s until late winter-spring of 1936.

The C-19s were never used on the Clear Creek lines. I've found no references for them being used on the Como-Alma run.

They were most commonly used in freight service on one of the once or twice a week 4-engine trains from Denver to Como, sometimes 2 or even 3 in a given consist.

In winter, a common use for the C-19s was helper on the passenger train, Como to Leadville:  A C-19, trailing a flanger would couple ahead of the passenger power, and run helper over Boreas and Fremont passes, returning the next day.

The C-19s were used almost to abandonment. On April 7, 1937 engine 346 handled the last C&S stock train, 15 cars from Denver to Jefferson. Helpers westbound were engines 345, 58 and 65. The caboose was 1006, still in use at this late date.

The two C-19s on the stock train returned to Denver on April 8th, running light. All the C-19s were then stored in the Denver roundhouse until April 18-19, when the joint inspections by the two roads mechanical departments took place.  The 3 engines were loaded back onto flat cars and shipped to Alamosa thereafter.

Still looking for more photos.

[Keith Hayes]

Two of the Otto Perry photos above appear to document two of the engines returning eastbound light somewhere in Englewood, methinks.

Also, not the additional C&S fireman jewelry: extra coal scoops and clinker rods. 😎

[Robert McFarland]

There is a brief clip of one of the D&RGW engines in the C&S #9 video.

[Jim Courtney]

Found two more Otto Perry photos of C-19s on the C&S:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/57733/rec/3



The only photo I've found to date with one of the C19s on a train.  Westbound at Sheridan Jct, September 23, 1936; per Otto's caption: "Freight, westbound, on the Colorado & Southern; 14 cars 15 MPH; Colorado & Southern 5 and Denver Rio Grande Western 343 in rear pushing."



http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/46618/rec/1



This photo is dated April 1, 1937, less than a week prior to the last stock train cited above. Both 343 and 345 at the Denver Roundhouse have their Ridgeway spark arrestors removed.  Perhaps they were removed in the winter, or they have been removed prior to their planned return to the D&RGW in a couple of weeks.

Will keep looking.

[Jim Courtney]

I did find this photo of D&RGW 346 "on a train":


In Chappell, et al, Colorado Rail Annual No. 12. July 30, 1936.


This is how 346 looked after she rolled over, running light down Kenosha Pass, the last wreck on the C&S narrow gauge lines, July 25, 1936. Engineer McGowan was killed by the accident.

The locomotive was loaded on the CB&Q flat car and moved across to the Burlington shops in Denver, where the repairs were done.

[Keith Hayes]

Jim, there are also photos of one of the C-19s in the C&Sng book. The train in question is being assembled with two locomotives on the head end, and two more cut in mid-train as was practice. I believe it was one of the C's, 537, a B-4-F and a 2-6-0. Quite a line up.

[jim pallow]

There is a photo of the Grande engines on the DB&W on an excursion train in the Switzerland Trail book. JP

[Chris Walker]

Are you sure Jim?  The DB&W was abandoned in 1920. The C&S bought the #30-31-32 to be #74-75-76 from Morse Bros in 1921.

[Keith Hayes]

I just purchased a model of 345 and 346 for mainline service. These are unpainted models and will present a new project challenge for me to install DCC, sound, lights and paint on a brass lokie.

Anyone seen photos out there of a pre-wreck 346 in service on the C&S? All of Jim's photos above show 346 after the runaway.

Also, does the pilot deck get removed in order to install the cinder pipe?

[Jim Courtney]

Still looking for a pre-wreck 346 photo.

As to the pilot deck, if looks like a notch was cut out of the sheet metal pilot deck, like on the 1930's Overland C&S pilot decks with a small retaining strap holding the downspout in place.




The 346 likely looked like this, with the addition of the Ridgeway stack:


1934, Montrose


1935, Gunnison

Both photos from Dorman Collection online, will add links later.

(P.S.  I have 2 Sn3 Ridgeway stacks if you need them.)

[Jim Courtney]

Anyone seen photos out there of a pre-wreck 346 in service on the C&S?

Found it!  Again in the Dorman collection:

https://ngtrainpics.photoshelter.com/image?&_bqG=152&_bqH=eJxLynZJDqsKtPAMrUyJL0g3TIooj_KLSPR1ySi3MjIwtzI0MABhIOkZ7xLsbGtsYqYGZsU7.rnYlgDZocGuQfGeLrahIFXOZq5ZLikV4dmZyWrxjs4htqXFRcGpiUXJGWrOIEXOIEVhKUaF.Y5Gvkl.oQCXuiYt&GI_ID=



After painting, pay close attention to the lettering. Both 345 and 346 wore the "Royal Gorge" bug-herald when they arrived on the C&S.

After 346 rolled over in the Kenosha wreck, the C&S had the Denver Burlington Shops rebuild the engine and gave her a new paint job. The new (for 1937) "Moffat Road" bug-herald was applied at that time. I suspect that the C&S borrowed a set of stencils from the D&RGW.

[Keith Hayes]

Thank you,  Jim!

I suspect that the Burlington shop super got in his Ford and drove down to Burnham to get the stencils from the paint shop. They probably only had the Moffat stencil. A beer at the Buckhorn was probably in the mix.

Now...is the Bug herald centered on the letters below,  the word "Grande" on the Engineer's side, or on the tender itself?

[Jim Courtney]

Just above the "A" in "Grande" it looks to me . . .

I really like that large Pyle headlight.

Don't forget the cab curtains -- PBL has them in cast white metal.

[tonyk375]

The #345 is no more but the tender it used in it's C&S days still survives.  It went to the #340 then to the #318 and is at the Musuem now with the 318.  Here is a shot of it posted by Chris Walker

[Keith Hayes]

Leased locomotives arrive for service over Fremont Pass!

The boys in the shop need to work them over, issue an extra coal scoop, some flue augers and of course the appropriate spark arrestor.