Sn3 OMI/BLW "type 3" Steel frame boxcar model

[Robert Stears]

What is the groups opinion regarding the accuracy of the Sn3 "Type 3" C&S steel frame boxcar model?

[Jim Courtney]

Hey Bob,

The Sn3 OMI "type 3" Steel frame boxcar model, still offered by PBL, was produced by Grandt Line for Overland, to spur sales of Overland brass Sn3 locomotive and caboose models.

Grandt used the same dimensions for the Sn3 tooling as they had used on the earler HOn3 kits that they still offer (well, at least for another 35 days). BLW never produced a kit for the SUF "phase 3" boxcars, only the "phase 2" truss rod boxcars of 1907-08.

IMHO the Grandt and Overland kits in HOn3 and Sn3 respectively, are too short in height by about 2.5 to 3 scale inches. I think that Grandt created the tooling for both kits so's to match the roof height of their SUF reefer kit. As it turns out, the Phase 2 and Phase 3 (SUF) boxcars were a bit taller than the reefers.

The phase 2 and 3 boxcar bodies were pretty much identical with identical roof walk heights (Folio sheets list roof walk heights of both series as 10'-3.5" from rail). Reefer heights were a smidgen shorter, 10'-2" roof walk height.

Because the Phase 2 wood under frame used 9" side sills, while the Phase 3 SUF cars used 7" side sills, the SUF car body was 2" shorter from bottom of sides to top of fascia, but rode 2" higher on the trucks.

I have Grandt/Overland boxcar kits in both scales. The upper side fascia appears about 2.75 inches too narrow, making the boxcar kits a bit too short.

I built one Overland kit to correct height by scratch building new ends and sides from Evergreen scribed siding, retaining the kit underframe and 13-rib roof, appliances, etc. I assume that is what On3 C&S modelers (like Mike Trent) do as well, using the Grandt On3 SUF kit.

A simpler method might be to add a strip of styrene to the top of the kit's car sides and ends (a 0.030x0.030 strip in HOn3 and 0.040x0.040 strip in Sn3 would be about right), too make the fascia wider, the car taller and more accurate.

Folio 27 sheets for the phase 2 and phase 3 boxcars:






I particularly like the Grandt/Overland rendition of the 5 1/4" center groove siding. The other detail parts are nicely done as well.

I do not like the one piece Delrin brake rigging shot as it looks too thick and clunky to my eye -- I usually build up the brake rigging using 0.012 wire, PBL clevises and brake levers from Evergreen HO 1x4 styrene strips.

The corner steps on the OMI Sn3 car are too wide, tooled to use the Grandt Line Delrin stirrup steps--I replace them with PBL parts.

The original Bettendorf trucks with the OMI kits are a bit over scale and don't roll well--I replace mine with Berlyn or PBL Bettendorf trucks. The PBL trucks are offered with their inherited, reworked version of the original kits.


A long winded reply, perhaps, but you did ask . . .

[Robert Stears]

Thanks very much Jim.

I have the Sn3 PBL C&S # 74, 75 and 76 and bought a dozen or so Sn3 boxcars as well as some reefers, stock cars.and a couple of OMI cabooses many years ago to fulfill my aspiration to build a pretty simple Leadville layout. It looks like I have some modifications to do. Does the Sn3 car have the same problem?

Thanks very much for the information.

Bob

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 26, 2018, at 10:51 PM, Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hey Bob,

The Sn3 OMI "type 3" Steel frame boxcar model, still offered by PBL, was produced by Grandt Line for Overland, to spur sales of Overland brass Sn3 locomotive and caboose models.

Grandt used the same dimensions for the Sn3 tooling as they had used on the earler HOn3 kits that they still offer (well, at least for another 35 days). BLW never produced a kit for the SUF "phase 3" boxcars, only the "phase 2" truss rod boxcars of 1907-08.

IMHO the Grandt and Overland kits in HOn3 and Sn3 respectively, are too short in height by about 2.5 to 3 scale inches. I think that Grandt created the tooling for both kits so's to match the roof height of their SUF reefer kit. As it turns out, the Phase 2 and Phase 3 (SUF) boxcars were a bit taller than the reefers.

The phase 2 and 3 boxcar bodies were pretty much identical with identical roof walk heights (Folio sheets list roof walk heights of both series as 10'-3.5" from rail). Reefer heights were a smidgen shorter, 10'-2" roof walk height.

Because the Phase 2 wood under frame used 9" side sills, while the Phase 3 SUF cars used 7" side sills, the SUF car body was 2" shorter from bottom of sides to top of fascia, but rode 2" higher on the trucks.

I have Grandt/Overland boxcar kits in both scales. The upper side fascia appears about 2.75 inches too narrow, making the boxcar kits a bit too short.

I built one Overland kit to correct height by scratch building new ends and sides from Evergreen scribed siding, retaining the kit underframe and 13-rib roof, appliances, etc. I assume that is what On3 C&S modelers (like Mike Trent) do as well, using the Grandt On3 SUF kit.

A simpler method might be to add a strip of styrene to the top of the kit's car sides and ends (a 0.030x0.030 strip in HOn3 and 0.040x0.040 strip in Sn3 would be about right), too make the fascia wider, the car taller and more accurate.

Folio 27 sheets for the phase 2 and phase 3 boxcars:






I particularly like the Grandt/Overland rendition of the 5 1/4" center groove siding. The other detail parts are nicely done as well.

I do not like the one piece Delrin brake rigging shot as it looks too thick and clunky to my eye -- I usually build up the brake rigging using 0.012 wire, PBL clevises and brake levers from Evergreen HO 1x4 styrene strips.

The corner steps on the OMI Sn3 car are too wide, tooled to use the Grandt Line Delrin stirrup steps--I replace them with PBL parts.

The original Bettendorf trucks with the OMI kits are a bit over scale and don't roll well--I replace mine with Berlyn or PBL Bettendorf trucks. The PBL trucks are offered with their inherited, reworked version of the original kits.


A long winded reply, perhaps, but you did ask . . .

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[Jim Courtney]

Does the Sn3 car have the same problem?

Yes, same scale dimensions as the HOn3 Grandt kit.

As I said, increasing the body height by 0.040" with styrene strips on the sides and ends (to widen the fascia to correct width) might be the easiest fix.

[Jeff Young]

Hi Jim,

Thanks again for the info on making the Grandt Line kits right.  I still haven’t gotten around to building mine, but I have your corrections in my notes!

Cheers,
Jeff.

[John Greenly]

Here's an HO Grandt SUF boxcar kit I put together, after Jim posted this information on an earlier thread.  I followed Jim's suggestion exactly, added a .030" styrene strip to the top of the fascia on sides and ends.  Without this, the facia does look obviously too narrow- once your attention is drawn to it (thanks Jim!!)



I otherwise built the kit as supplied, except I decided to make a wooden roofwalk to use instead of the plastic parts.  This was a year or so ago, it was the first plastic kit I made, and I was trying to figure out how to get it to look like weathered wood with peeling paint.  It seemed to come out pretty good except for the roofwalk, couldn't get that to look like raw weathered wood no matter what I tried, so I made a basswood one instead:



I love these Grandt kits, they're so beautifully done. As Jim mentioned, the boxcar siding is really fine.  The phase 3 coal on the left is the Grandt kit as well.  There's only one thing I would do differently next time on the boxcar-  though the plastic pieces for the bottom corner irons are very good, the middle and upper ones are rather thick. I filed them down some, but they're still too thick.  I think I would make up ones out of .005" brass instead, next time.  It's just asking too much of styrene parts to be that thin.


Cheers,
John

John Greenly
Lansing NY

[Jim Courtney]

Beautiful boxcar there John!

Bob,

The Overland Sn3 kits for the SUF boxcar, SUF reefer and the SUF coal car were all produced by Grandt for Overland and packaged in Overland's green boxes. All three kits are simply scale enlargements of the Grandt HOn3 kits for those cars, 1:87-->1:64. The parts sprues, body parts, etc are identical, simply larger.

Berlyn produced phase 2 kits for the 1907-1908 truss rod boxcar, stock car and coal cars in Sn3. As we've discussed, the stock car kit is too tall, while the boxcar and coal car seem right on. These kits are still offered by Paul Graham at Precision Vintage Classics.

I've never seen one of the PBL Sn3 SUF boxcar or reefer kits, the tooling supposedly inherited from Overland. PBL says there was some retooling done before they re-introduced the kits. I don't know if they fixed the height problem on the boxcar.

The PBL SUF stock car kit in Sn3 is from new tooling by PBL and is exquisite, the car height seems right on.


BTW, I thought you were a hard core On3 modeler of the C&S -- why this sudden interest in Sn3??

[Jim Courtney]

John,

How did you finish the interior of the Grandt C&S SUF coal car interior to make it so convincingly look like weathered wood?

Finishing styrene to look like weathered wood is always a challenge for me -- yours looks great!

[Bill Uffelman]

Nicely done. Thanks for sharing.

Bill Uffelman

On Friday, April 27, 2018, 11:53:16 AM EDT, John Greenly [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Here's an HO Grandt SUF boxcar kit I put together, after Jim posted this information on an earlier thread.  I followed Jim's suggestion exactly, added a .030" styrene strip to the top of the fascia on sides and ends.  Without this, the facia does look obviously too narrow- once your attention is drawn to it (thanks Jim!!)



I otherwise built the kit as supplied, except I decided to make a wooden roofwalk to use instead of the plastic parts.  This was a year or so ago, it was the first plastic kit I made, and I was trying to figure out how to get it to look like weathered wood with peeling paint.  It seemed to come out pretty good except for the roofwalk, couldn't get that to look like raw weathered wood no matter what I tried, so I made a basswood one instead:



I love these Grandt kits, they're so beautifully done. As Jim mentioned, the boxcar siding is really fine.  The phase 3 coal on the left is the Grandt kit as well.  There's only one thing I would do differently next time-  though the plastic pieces for the bottom corner brackets are very good, the middle and upper ones on the boxcar are rather thick. I sanded them down some, but they're still too thick.  I think I would make up ones out of .005" brass instead, next time.  It's just asking too much of styrene parts to be that thin.


Cheers,
John

John Greenly
Lansing NY

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[Keith Hayes]

Bob, here is the OMI kit on the left, and the PBL right.

If you had not asked, I never would have known the car is about 3" short.

I agree the siding is finely rendered, and the original trucks are awful. I do like the one piece brake shot, which was a revolution on this car: I lack Jim's patience to piece thes parts together.

[Mike Trent]

Hi Jim,

I can't speak for others of my On3 brethren, but here is what I have of my 8 serviceable boxcars:

3- Type 3 Tomalco body, Grandt underframe

1- Type 1 Tomalco body

3- Type 2 San Juan

1- Presumed Grandt Line Type 3

The thing is, that I have not ever heard that Grandt had ever produced an On3 boxcar kit. But this one actually looks like it may be. All of the Tomalco body cars are pretty close to the folio dimensions, but other than the San Juan Type 2's, and this mysterious Type 3 that was built by a friend in Missouri, On3 C&S boxcars have always been catch as catch can.

So it is actually with a degree of envy that I read of C&S boxcar kits in Sn3!