Passenger equipment

[Jeff Young]

What colour are you guys painting your coach, baggage, and mail car roofs?  Black or green (or silver)?

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Jim Courtney]

Hi Jeff,

Mike Trent had the best information as to painting C&S passenger equipment that I've ever seen.  He posted it on Keith' C&S Coach 72 thread:  http://c-sn3-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/C-amp-S-Passenger-72-td2115.html

For brevity, I'll quote Mike:

When I finished the cars, I followed Rob Smith's suggestion of Model Master "Dark Green" for the bodys, and used Rustoleum Camoflauge "Deep Forest Green" for the trucks. For seats I used Grandt #3016 wood framed Coach Seats, affixed to the car sides, rather than trying to raise the absent floors. I painted them Red Oxide Primer. I added partition walls for the restrooms, and also for the middle seperation partition in Coach #70, painted them "Afrika Mustard", as it was the only color I could find that looked like finished wood from the outside. For the upper window shades, I painted styrene strips using the MM "Dark Green" color, and to my eye, the cars tuned out very well. I used modified San Juan Evolution Couplers in Kadee On3 Draft Gear.

and:

Yes the roof on Coach #70 is green.

I found, in the process of overspraying the "Semi Gloss" topcoat (Also Model Master) that by applying only from the side and from below, the amount of Semi Gloss on the roof was residual only, which results in a much different appearance, almost a flat finish in comparison. Even my wife thought that looked good, as though it was more faded from the sun.

Having worked on the crew which repainted #70 in Idaho Springs back in the 80's, I can confirm that the car had been painted entirely green. Roof, trucks, body, hardware. Rob Smith likes the look of a slight variation in the color of the trucks, as though from dust, etc. After admiring his work, I followed suit.


Mike also posted some photos of his beautiful On3 C&S passenger cars.

Jim

[Jeff Young]

Hi Jim,

Indeed, it was that thread that prompted my query.  (Previously I had just assumed the roofs would be black.)

I’ve used Vallejo’s “equivalent” to Polly Scale “Dark Green” (which used to be “71.016 US Dark Green” but now appears to be labelled “71.016 USAF Olive Drab”).  Since Polly Scale and Model Master were both Testors labels, you’d think they might be the same — but the Polly Scale Dark Green looks a bit more blue to me, and the Vallejo “equivalent” a bit more yellow.  Then again, the differences might just be the colour calibration of the various images….

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Jeff Young]

My Alamosa kit comes with some dark-green tinted plastic for the clerestory windows.

Was the dark-green tint a Grande thing, or a period thing (ie: after they added air conditioning to the San Juan and Shavano), or a wide-spread narrow-gauge thing?

More directly, should a 1928 C&S passenger car have clear or tinted clerestory windows?

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Jeff Young]

OK, I don't think it's an air-conditioning-specific thing.  This open platform (ie: not part of a closed-vestibule air conditioned consist) car appears to have tinted clerestory windows (note how much darker the hill in the background is through them, as opposed to through the main windows):


Courtesy of William Reed

And this one of the Alamosa (which would have run in air-conditioned consists), has no tinting:


Courtesy of William Reed

C&S colour shots are harder to come by; the only one I have isn't very helpful on the clerestory question (although it looks to me as though it has a black roof):

 
Courtesy of William Reed

The clerestory windows in this shot are certainly far less reflective than the main windows: does that imply tinting?


DPL: http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/42442/rec/28

[Jim Courtney]

Jeff,

All the clerestrory windows in the C&S cars look opaque, because they were all fitted with framed outside mounted screens.  Thus, the windows could be opened from the inside during the summer to allow ventilation of the car without bugs, cinders, etc, blowing into the car.

Even on the D&GR coach 285, ever other clerestory window is covered by a screen (the ones without screens are recessed); the "Alamosa" has all but 2 windows covered by a screen.  All of the C&S cars that you posted seemed to have screens on every clerestory window.

This seems to have been an early convention.  The Shawnee photo below c1910, has visible screens on both the baggage and RPO-coach:



If you figure out how to model individual framed screens in HOn3, let me know so's I can do it in Sn3!

Jim

[Keith Hayes]

Jim, that was what I was going to say.

[Chris Walker]

Get some Sheila's pantyhose and stretch it out on a jigframe. Then lay across two parallel strips of correct size stripwood long enough to make all you need in one, then add double wide spacers between the parallel strips like ladder rungs which you carefully slice across to part in half to release the individual screens.  Cyano adhesive may burn up the nylons in which case use a waterproof whiteglue, appling glue only to the stripwood.  Someone may want to try laser cutting the stripwood,  I think styrene won't allow you to set the pantyhose.  

[Jeff Young]

The pantyhose is a nice idea.  Then again, I’m not modelling the bugs, so I’m not sure my passengers need the screens….

[Jim Courtney]

I'm not modeling S scale bugs either, but modeling screens for the clerestory windows for my brass Overland C&S passenger cars may be a necessary chore.  

The Overland cars, while beautiful models (as described in Keith's "Coach 72" thread), have one major flaw.  The lower roof course is a solid piece of curved brass, with the clerestory sides (with cut out windows) and the clerestory roof soldered to this solid lower roof.  I can't think of anyway to paint the inside of the clerestory and/or to install glazing inside the clerestory sides behind the windows.  I may have to build a lot of little screens to apply over each of the clerestory windows to avoid seeing bare brass after the car is painted/finished.  That's one reason I've put off painting 4 cars (as if I need an excuse to procrastinate!).

Chris's panty hose idea may have merit--I've been thinking etched brass frames soldered or glued to brass screen, trimmed, painted, applied, etc.

I recently purchased all the Quick Pic Books dealing with existing C&S cars: http://quickpicbooks.homestead.com.  They are excellent modeling resources and have cleared up many detail misunderstandings for me (like the 1902 coal car brake rigging).  I highly recommend them all.

The book on C&S Coach 76, one of the 74-76 series AC&F coaches of 1902, has some good detail shots of the exterior clerestory window screens and the interior clerestory windows and how they opened:






The frames of the screens seem recessed into the clerestory window opening, not mounted externally.





Each of the clerestory windows was hinged on the bottom and were opened by using the brass loop latches at the top, allowing them to swing down to an open position (above and below):





The AC&F coaches had one neat detail that I didn't know about until I bought the book.  The undersides of the platform roof overhang, on each end of the car, had two large screen panels to funnel air into the clerestory from the platform area and out the back end of the car, further improving ventilation in the car during the summer.  Not sure how effective the screens were in keeping out coal smoke!





This air flow from the platform could be closed off in the winter, by means of a panel inside the car, just above the door:





The panel with "76" painted on it is the panel described, partially opened in this view:





The clerestory windows in the restored RPO number 13 are, at this point in time, fixed and don't open according to the Quick Pic Book. The glass was not tinted but was of a neat etched glass.  There are no external screens on the RPO 13 in this current restoration:





I'm not sure that was always the case, as this photo at Como suggests external screens over each clerestory window; one of the screens appears to be coming loose:


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/72086/rv/singleitem/rec/35



Both RPO 13 and Coach 76, veterans of the Chicago World's Fair exhibition train of 1948-1949, are currently restored and on covered display at Silver Plume, now owned by the Colorado Historical Society.


Mike Trent, as you helped restore Coach 70 at Idaho Springs, did that earlier St Charles coach also have the screen panels under the platform roof under hang?

Keith, how did you deal with the clerestory windows on your coach 72?  Is the brass interior visible?  Perhaps you could post a photo of the side of the finished car.

Jim

[Keith Hayes]

Jim:

Yes, the construction of the Overland model roof is frustrating to say the least. It made the cars easier to fabricate, but more difficult to finish. I sent my models to 7th Street Shops. Derrell managed to get some overspray into the top of the inner arch in the clerestory to take the sheen off, and it is not really noticeable. The clerestory windows are NOT glazed. I picked up a model of 74-76, and plan to paint it myself. I thought about taking a cut-off disc to the roof, but fear it may weaken the car. Let me think about this some more.

Incidentally, Mr. Poole believes that the roofs of C&S passenger cars was painted green like the cars sides. Personally, I like a black roof. You will note Mr. Leedy's cars have black roofs.

I had the pleasure of leading the team that restored the end platforms of D&RGW Cook Car 053. The ventilator panels on the underside of the end roofs is a common detail, as is the small hole through which ran the emergency brake line. Car builders were pretty creative folks, and passenger cars in particular are giant cabinets.

I bought the most recent run of PBL D&RGW passenger cars, and they included screens on their clerestory windows. When I venture to the man cave this weekend I will try to remember to take a photo. These are a fine mesh, almost more perforated rather than a screen. They do make a difference, and I don't know how the manufacturer painted and glazed these as I have not taken the cars apart. It is a nice detail, but frankly, you cannot tell the difference on the C&S car I have from a few feet away. It does bring up the question of detail on operating models--sometimes if they are moving you don't notice as much.

And Jim, I promise to get out to the CRRM and check the underside of 7064 to investigate the brake rigging at the center of the car!

[Jeff Young]

My current plan is to paint the Silica bunkhouse roof black, but the roofs of my in-service passenger equipment green.  

I find the wooden roofs to look slightly over-scale, so I'm hoping the black will shrink it a bit.  My baggage/mail #13, on the other hand, is brass, and I imagine my coach will be too (should I ever find one of the elusive beasts).

Keith & Jim, I'd be taking a cut-off wheel to the inside of those Overland roofs.  (Just make sure to keep them cool so they don't warp out of shape.)  In fact, I may need to do the same to my baggage/mail #13, if it has the same design.

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Norm Acker]

I had the fortune to be on the CRRM team that restored D&RGW B-8 business car, and personally re-installed the bottom-hinged clerestory windows. We also made new screens, and somehow I ended up with a couple of the old ones. It looks like it may be similar to the C&S screen setup that Jim referenced. Here's a picture in case anyone is interested.
 

[Rick Steele]

Norm,

I removed the screens from C&S 20 back in about 1970 and before I could get them rebuilt they ended up in the trash gon. To the best of my recollection, they looked very much like those from the Business car. Each clerestory window had its own screen and the clerestory support posts between each window had been built up using about a 1x4 or 1x5 so that when the screens were installed they were almost flush with the upper roof overhang. The screens were painted the same color as the car.

I do not know if the painting of the screens occurred after the car was put on display or was original to the C&S.

The only hint is that there was no overspray of Coach Green on the inner clerestory windows.

FYI, the windows in the clerestory were not colored, stained or tinted in any manner. They were a frosted clear glass.

Rick

[Keith Hayes]

Jeff, I think I will stick to painting the car as is; the lack of glass is not noticeable and there are other projects with higher priority.

Here is the Sn3 C&S car:

And how PBL detailed the clerks tory on their recent run:

[Keith Hayes]

Me thinks you are seeing the reflection of a clear blue Colorado sky in the late afternoon.

[Jeff Young]

Thanks for the info, everyone.

I went ahead and installed clear glass (and no screens) in the Silica bunkhouse.

But looking at Norm's picture, it occurs to me that at 1:87 tinted plastic may be a better scale model than any type of actual screen.  (In Norm's picture, even at 1:1 you can barely make out the screen wires -- it mostly just looks darker.)

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Norm Acker]

I agree, Jeff. Even in 1/4" a grey tint should be convincing. Although now I'm catching myself wondering if I could print a very small 600 dot per inch pattern with a laser printer on a satin clear sheet--because I never overthink the details of any of these projects, chuckle...

[Jeff Young]

Actually, I think that’s a great idea.  600 dpi gets you a 5/32” mesh in HO scale, which is pretty dang close to what an actual screen would  be.

On 18 Jan 2016, at 22:25, Norm Acker [via C&Sn3 Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I agree, Jeff. Even in 1/4" a grey tint should be convincing. Although now I'm catching myself wondering if I could print a very small 600 dot per inch pattern with a laser printer on a satin clear sheet--because I never overthink the details of any of these projects, chuckle...

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