Modelling the Silica bunkhouse (aka coach/mail #41)

[Chris Walker]

Jeff,
have you noticed in Otto Perry's picture that the Clerestory is partly covered by what looks to be both fabric(on the left of) and metal (silver) covering?

[Jeff Young]

Yes; I presume that’s the result of the roof (or perhaps windows) leaking.  That picture is 13 years after the car left service -- since I’m modelling only a few months after, I’m skipping the extra flashing.  (I’m including only the heat-shielding flashing behind each stove-pipe.)

The Otto Perry picture also shows what might be traces of the “&” on the letter board.  I thought at first it was the “S”, but it’s positioned where the “&” would be, and in the old script they’re pretty similar.

Part of what made me doubt that, though, was the lack of any remains of the “United States Mail Railway Post Office” lettering, as seen here on #43 sometime in the bear-trap era:



But the Richard B. Jackson pictures of #40 and #42 (from the 30's) don't show it either, suggesting they did away with that in later years (perhaps before #41 was retired?):

[Jeff Young]

Current plan based on feedback from Jim and Keith is to at least apply the "Colorado & Southern" lettering, and probably the car number.

Any dissenting opinions?

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Jim Courtney]

Jeff,

When passenger service on the Clear Creek line ceased in early 1927, the only remaining RPO route was the daily Denver to Como run, later tri-weekly Denver to Leadville after 1931.  

The RPO coaches likely saw little service after the early to mid 1920s. There were several combination RPO-express cars available, that were capable of handling the dwindling express service.  

The RPO coaches may have even been downgraded to outfit service by the late 1920s, or used only on excursions where a minimal baggage compartment was necessary (as in the photo of number 43 that you posted above).  The "US Mail / Railway Express Agency" lettering may have been removed at that time.

So, for the Silica bunk house, only the Colorado & Southern on the letter board and the car number would make sense to me.

Anyone know of photos of the latest recorded date of one of the RPO-coaches in regular passenger service?

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/42471/rec/86


This Otto Perry photo of the Leadville passenger departing Denver is dated September 17, 1922.  One of the RPO-coaches is in the consist behind express car number 3.  Evidently, the RPO-coach was cut out of the train at Como, and only the express car ran through to Leadville, as in this mid 1920s photo of the shortened train at Dillon:



Photographer unknown, likely mid 1920s; express car 1 or 2 completed the run from Como to Leadville, with some heavy power on this particular day.


The photos we discussed of the last passenger train from Silver Plume in 1927, may be the last photo of one of the RPO-coaches in revenue service:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42454/rv/singleitem/rec/21

[Keith Hayes]

Chris, looks like a roof patch to me.

I am guessing the ranchers just did the whole side and went ahead and extended part of the patch over the windows and on top of the clerestory.

Being light in color, I wonder if it is the aluma-whatcha callit, or just canvas?

Jim's photos have got me hankering to build a baggage car. They just look too cool.

[Jim Courtney]

Keith wrote:

Jim's photos have got me hankering to build a baggage car. They just look too cool.

My sentiments exactly.  I'm already scheming a proposal for Mike McKinzie to produce a standard C&S clerestory roof via 3-D printing, as he already has experience designing clerestory roofs in HOn3 and Sn3: A common cross-section, width and end curvature, that could be lengthened or shortened to produce the various roofs for the baggage cars, RPOs, RPO-coaches and two of the combines.  

As long as any platform roof end overhang was horizontal, not downturned, one might be able to do roofs for all the blind end baggage cars 1-4, all the blind end RPOs 10-11-12-13, combines 20, 29 and 30 and the RPO-coach 40, by merely varying the roof length of a given file, from 34'-6" for the baggage cars 1 and 2, up to 45'4" for the RPO-coach 40.  The clerestory sides could be solid, with screens perhaps separately printed and applied, to match a specific car.

But I still have some St Charles and 1902 coal cars to build, now that the Holidays are over!

Jim

[Jeff Young]

In 1912 the Post Office Department created standards for mail cars, including a 15' compartment, a 30' one, and a full 60' all-steel RPO.  The C&S rebuilt RPOs #10 - #13 with the new 15' compartments.  It is likely that #40 - #43 left RPO service at this point, which would explain their later lack of "US Mail Railway Post Office" lettering.

Jim's pictures, however, show that they were still in use in some capacity.  If they were used for LCL, wouldn't you expect to see "American Railway Express" lettering (or "Railway Express Agency" post-1929)?

What were they using for pay cars during this period?  (That would certainly explain the lack of lettering -- no need for a "rob this car" label.)  Of the business cars, #910 was dismantled in 1929, it would appear that #911 was no longer being used as a pay car post-1913, and #912 was the water service foreman's car post-1926.  911's disposition, in particular, might support one or more of the mail/coach cars moving into the pay car role after leaving RPO service....

[Ken Martin]

Here is a photo of a model of #3 I built many years ago from a Labelle baggage car. It is at a mock up of the EBT Orbisonia depot on the Sacramento club. I now realize it not entirely accurate but still run it.  I shortened the roof. replaced the steps with beams and turned the door upside down.

I have also built 23 and 30 from Labelle kits.

Ken Martin

[Jim Courtney]

Jeff,

Not to argue the point, but I don't think that the railroad conforming to the new 1912 RPO standards had any effect on the RPO-coaches, as they were rebuilt from the Pullmans (or in the case of number 40 as a new car) with 18'2" mail compartments, larger than the requirements of the USPO. More to the point, the U-shaped mail sorting stuff was built against the interior bulkhead that separated the mail compartment from the coach.

The RPO-express cars 10-11-12-13 (I believe) were all originally built with the mail sorting area against the end wall of the car, and this may have been the issue requiring correction per USPO guidelines, not necessarily the dimensions. Take RPO 13 for example. It had been rebuilt in 1905 with its end platforms removed and lost its roof overhang, but was again rebuilt the same time as the other RPOs 10-11-12. The original mail compartment was at the car end: 1900-1910 photos show a single window between the RPO door and the car end. After the second rebuild, the arrangement with the familiar 2 windows between the RPO door and the interior bulkhead with the express compartment came about.

I have found one photo of one of the RPO-coaches, between baggage car and coach, at Jefferson dated to 1929. I think the RPO-coaches were commonly used on the Leadville passenger as long as the RPO route was only Denver to Como (until 1931), as in the 1922 photo of number 9 and train above. The C&S didn't have any dedicated RPOs, to be cut out of the train at Como, and likely didn't want to haul an empty RPO-baggage, sans postal clerk, over Boreas and Fremont passes in each direction, every day. Or, the baggage compartment of cars 10-13 was just too small to handle the express business between Denver and Leadville.

Since most passenger destinations out of Denver on the South Park were along Platte Canon (especially in the summer) the RPO-coaches provided extra passenger capacity between Denver and Como, that wasn't needed from Como to Leadville.

Certainly by 1931, when the Leadville train became tri-weekly, and there was no passenger service on the Clear Creek Line, the C&S only needed one RPO-baggage car (and perhaps a spare) for regular operations.  Number 13 became the most frequently used car in this truncated service.

Anyways, just my beliefs, can't firmly prove them though. Anyone have concrete documention?

Jim

[Jeff Young]

Hi Jim,

For what it’s worth, I got that conjecture from Hayes Hendricks, who states:

“These cars were probably used for RPO service only until 1912, for in that year the Post Office Department created standards for mail cars, and baggage-mail cars #10-13 were rebuilt with the new standard 15' mail compartment.” [1]

Mind you, he usually lists sources when he has them, so it’s probably conjecture either way.

Cheers,

Jeff.

[1] http://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/CandS/dsp-passenger/bonanza-leadville-sanjuan2.htm

[Jim Courtney]

Yeah Jeff,

Wish we knew for sure.  But from the late teens to as late as 1929, the RPO-coaches show up in the Leadville train, between Denver and Como, with no other RPO in sight to carry the mail, as you said "in some capacity".

BTW, since you've demonstrated such craftsmanship building the bunkhouse and are still waiting to find the mythical Overland C&S coach in HOn3, perhaps you should consider building one of the laser kits for either coach 58 or coach 60: http://www.heartlandrailway.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/H0n3_doc-cmp.pdf. (I prefer the 58, with all those vertical battens over the stove area of the right end of the car.)

I believe the 3-D printed roofs are by our own Mike McKinzie.

Jim

[Jeff Young]

Hi Jim,

Indeed, this part:

> ... with no other RPO in sight to carry the mail…

seems pretty incontrovertible.  If the mail/coaches were being used as baggage, express, pay car, etc., then the consist would have had to include something else (presumably one of #10 - #13) to carry the mail.

Thanks for the reminder about Heartland.  I had forgotten about them.  

I might even need two coaches, given the hypothesis we’re building.  (If the volume of express or baggage was too large, they’d just add a baggage car.  #13 probably only finds its way into the consist if the volume of passengers is larger than a coach/mail + coach could handle.)

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Jeff Young]

I added a few washes to the car:
a) a dirty black for rain-streaks on the roof
b) a dirty black to age the sides a bit
c) a muddy brown around the doors and on the platform

... and then lettered it.

I think it needs one more wash of dirty black to the letter board, and then a light spray of sandy brown along the bottom.

[Jim Courtney]

I think that I could have done a better job of illustrating how the RPO coaches were operated in the teens and twenties, when RPO service was Denver to Como only.

This is one of my favorite Perry photos of the Leadville passenger train departing Denver in 1918, with rebuilt Brooks number 21 as the power:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42509/rv/singleitem/rec/11


What a great passenger consist: Baggage number 3, an RPO-coach, two full coaches and an excursion car!


And similar consists seem the norm every day, Monday thru Saturday, likely to 1931.  Richard B Jackson took a trip to Leadville and back in August of 1929:

(all photos by Richard B Jackson in Ferrell's C&Sng and Chappell, et al. Colorado Rail Annual No. 12)


Engine 10 prepares to depart Denver Union Station with westbound train 70, departure time 8:00 AM.  In todays consist is a single-door baggage/express car, an RPO-coach and a full coach.





Further west, about 10:40 AM, if on schedule, the train takes water at Crossons. The consist can now be identified as baggage car 4, RPO-coach 42 and coach 71. Note the "US Mail/Railway Post Office" lettering is still on number 42 as late as August 1929, but outboard of the side door, unlike that of number 43 above.
(I've got to get a pair of those pants!)





The train works its way west up Platte Canyon, crests Kenosha Pass and makes the station stop at Jefferson at 12:55 PM; a fair amount of express is unloaded from baggage number 4. Are those mail sacks by the door of 42, just behind the switch stand?





Evidently train 70 turned on the wye, just shy of Como, and backed into the depot area at 1:20 PM.  Engine 10 then switched out the train, setting out the RPO-coach on the track behind the Stone Garage. Denver bound train number 71 had arrived about 10 minutes earlier, its power heading toward the roundhouse to be turned and serviced (distance).





Engine number 6 has reassembled train 71, including RPO-coach 42, which will return east to Denver. The baggage car that came in from Leadville today on train 71 is number 3. Departure for Jefferson and points east is 1:35 PM. Meanwhile, engine 10 is being coaled and watered, and will depart with baggage 4 and coach 71, westbound at 1:40 PM





West of Boreas, into the valley of the Blue, locomotive 10 and its two cars change train numbers from 70 to 88 at Dickey and arrive at Dillon at 3:40 PM. After unloading yet more express from baggage 4, it will depart for Dickey as new train number 89 at 3:50 PM.





Having climbed Fremont pass, westbound train 70 arrives with its two car train at Climax at 5:29 PM. Even more baggage and express is pulled from the depths of baggage number 4. Train 70 will end it its day at the Leadville depot at 6:25 PM.
(Actually, Jackson likely took this photo of the same consist the next morning, on his return to Denver on train 71, as the train appears eastbound at Climax--but why mess up a good story.)


It is unfortunate that Dick Jackson's photographs are not available digitally, like those of Otto Perry.  He took fabulous photographs of a wonderful railroad . . .

[Keith Hayes]

Thanks for this compendium of Jackson photos. And good spotting of the RPO in Como.

It is unfortunate many photogs work is not online. Downunder would have much more source material to work with!

[Jim Courtney]

Lately, I've been scanning period photos of interest from my book collection, so they are indexed and more easily located on my computer.  It is amazing how the same image that I've looked at many times over the past 25 years, once enlarged and cleaned up on my computer, has so much more information that I'd never noticed before, even under magnification.  Like the two passenger engines at Como in the early afternoon, when eastbound and westbound trains met--I'd never noticed the eastbound engine in the distance moving down to the water tank and coal trestle for servicing.

I'm also just beginning to understand why the C&S felt the necessity to run a full baggage/express car with the RPO-coach, instead of one of the RPO-express cars. Just look at all the express merchandise being unloaded at Jefferson, Dillon and Climax. Who knew that this business was so brisk, at this late of a date, 1929!  The 1920s photos of the Clear Creek train also showed full baggage cars in use, so perhaps express business at Clear Creek stations had remained steady, though more vulnerable to auto/truck competition.

But then again, we're used to seeing the C&S in its last decade, during the depression. In the 1920s, the economy may not have been that great in Colorado (mining was still in decline due to the inflation of the roaring twenties), but in August of 1929 the stock market crash was still a month away and the Great Depression was still a ways over the horizon.

The Jackson photos of 1929 may well be a last look at the C&S narrow gauge at a time of relative prosperity.

[Chris Walker]

Jim Courtney wrote

  It is amazing how the same image that I've looked at many times over the past 25 years, once enlarged and cleaned up on my computer, has so much more information that I'd never noticed before, even using magnification.  

Like the #9 "tipping her hat" as she passes by Otto,  so to speak!  

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/42471/rec/86

[Robert McFarland]

In the picture of  10  posed near the Stone Garage you can see the front end of the Roundhouse's stationary boiler poking it's nose out of the back wall.It appears to be a loco boiler.Figuring the length from the stack to the  smokebox front,could this have been from a 286T Bogie,or could some of the boilers left from the reboilerings of the C&S  engines have been reused as stationary boilers?

[Jim Courtney]

Ken,

Your model of baggage number 3 has made me want to build a short baggage car even more.

You're no slouch when it comes to the history of the C&S passenger cars.  Do we know for certain when the baggage cars lost their end platforms and roof overhangs?  Would a model like your #3, or one of the two-door baggage cars without platforms be incorrect in 1909-1910?

Supposedly, RPO 13 lost its end platforms in 1905, shown with locomotive 9 in c1908-09, before the later rebuilding into its final configuration:

http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/38231/rv/singleitem




The RPO-coaches were converted from Pullman sleepers in 1906, with no platform or roof overhang at the RPO end.  


And baggage 4 shows up in the 1909-1910 McClure photo at Baileys without platforms:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/329/rv/singleitem/rec/4



This McClure photo seems to be a contemporary to the two photos above, also likely from 1909-1910:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/10726/rv/singleitem



One of the RPOs 10-11-12 (no legible number) has already lost its platforms and roof overhang, though these cars are alleged to have not been rebuilt until after the new 1912 postal regulations came into effect; see Jeff's reference above. Yet the car in the photo has lost its platforms, but hasn't had the interior remodeling into its final configuration:





The "conventional wisdom" that I've read in the past says that platforms and overhanging roofs disappeared from the head end cars in the early to mid teens. Do we know for sure that this didn't happen earlier?

I'd love to see a photo of your combine number 30.

Jim

[Jeff Young]

One additional tidbit on the RPO/coach cars: Chappell describes it at one point as the RPO/smoking-coach.

Coach #70 at Idaho Springs has a dividing wall about 1/2-way down the interior: was that to separate smoking from non-smoking, or first-class from second?  It doesn’t appear on the folio, so I assume it was a later addition.  Do we know how much later?

Cheers,
Jeff.