Help identifying a baggage car

[Robert McFarland]

One of the Boulder photos shows 155 with a Congdon stack which made me think that it and CC 10 were the same engine until it was mentioned in your post that 10 became 152.Prior to  the arrival of CC 10  the original GSL&P engine  was CC 6.

[Dave Eggleston]

Robert, you've got my attention with that statement. What's the photo reference number for that Congdon stack on 155? There are a few photos of 155 in the flood of 1894 in Boulder, sunk into the muck, and it doesn't have a Congdon stack at that time. Here's image 225-1-24 by CW Rowland:



I've only seen a Congdon on CC10 in the pictures on the line, but there are a few photos of a Congdon-equipped engine in which no engine number is visible because of angle or distance. I have suspected this to be CC10 but of course there's a chance we're seeing other engines; on the flip side, every other identifiable engine from 1886-1894 in dateable photos sports a stack like that seen above on 155, suggesting a theory that Congdon stacks were removed and gone around 1885-1886 and only CC 10 sported one on the line.

Crossen suggests that CC6 ran on the line during construction but no pictures of it have been found so far. I believe it may have sported a Congdon in 1883.

[Robert McFarland]

BHS 218-3-7 Photo 3 Railroad Stations-Salina. It has the backup light mounted on the cab.There should be a photo of CC6 in Goin'Railroading or Switzerland Trail.Sam Speas was fireman for engineer Squire Thorne on CC10 and CC6

[Dave Eggleston]

A few things about that photo:

- I see the steam pressure valve housing and whistle on the steam dome rising above the cab but can’t make out a headlight up there;
- I can make out the top of the headlight on the back of the tender;
- That isn’t a Congdon stack;
- The baggage car looks like KC 1322, dating this photo to likely 1890-94.

I don’t recall either Crossen nor Goin’ Railroading having a picture of CC 6. Only Crossen mentioning it in the loco section if his book. I’ll take another look when I’n home tonight.

[Robert McFarland]

You're looking at the wrong photo.It's photo 3,not 6.The correct photo has a dark colored  building with white framing in the foreground

[Robert McFarland]

There are photos in the group of a C&NW or DB&W Rotary train plowing snow in the Eldora area.They borrowed the C&S Rotary.

[Dave Eggleston]

I’ll check when I get home on my laptop. I searched for that call number on my phone and photo 3 of the set is given as glass plate S-2606, of the CC engine, baggage and coach on the passing siding with the switchstand target in front of the tender. Weird that it says that’s photo three butnot what you’re seeing.

[Dave Eggleston]

Ok, I'm at home and online and have pulled up the image. Disregard my previous comments, I apologize for going down the wrong path. I have no idea why my queries on the BHS site gave a different photo.

To avoid others getting into this trap, here's the photo: https://boulderlibrary.org/cwjpgs/218-3-7photo_3.jpg 

This is an interesting image! It modifies what I know about the line's engines, an image that clearly shows a 15x engine on the line with Congdon stack. Great spotting of that Robert! But which engine is it? The image is pixilated and low res, can't be zoomed, at least on my laptop in Google Chrome. Can you zoom in on it Robert? I can only make out a 15x number, but the last digit just isn't clear to me.  It could be 7 or 2 or ? Without a better copy  I have to say this could be any of the CC Brooks engines, perhaps #10 now numbered 152 but just as easily any other. Hopefully someone can share a clear view of that number.

The headlight does look to be on the roof, yes, and I can't make out one on the tender so this seems right. The pixilation leads to enough fuzz to consider another possibility: several GSL&P photos include a crew member posing on the cab roof. Despite that I'll lean to a headlight on the cab roof for now.

The consist of that train appears to be a boxcar, 01542 and a passenger car, likely a coach but dark spots hint at CC combine 6 which did run on the line in the early days. Again, the pixilation makes it hard to tell. I think regardless this is an 1885 to maybe 1887 photo. That dark building with white trim is a mill that survived to the C&N days with the addition in the late 1890s of a large overshot waterwheel.

I don't think this photo is published; a quick flip through Crossen and Speas seems to confirm this. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I can find no photos of CC 6 in Crossen book though he mentions it, and in fact he also mentions 108 which seems equally camera shy. I'd love to know what his reference for those two engines was--maybe Poor's article in RR&LHS 63? I don't have a copy to verify. The Speas book has 4 shots of CC 10, one of 154 and one of an unidentifiable engine at Orodel that is possibly CC 10 or the engine in the photo above...or another engine. No picture of CC 6 in the chapter on the line. If you know of a shot of CC 6 on the line, please point me to it!

Thanks for the clarification Robert!

[Todd Hackett]

degg13 wrote

...I can only make out a 15x number, but the last digit just isn't clear to me...

[Dave Eggleston]

Fantastic Todd! Mystery solved. There it is on Crossen page 42. Somehow I skipped over it earlier but it's in my photo notes. Damn.

So 155, Congdon, no roof vent. Lovely. Thanks!

[Robert McFarland]

Paddock Collection descriptive info accompanying the photo identifies it as 155

[Robert McFarland]

Todd,do you know of a photo of CC6 on the GSL&P? I thought there was one Speas or Crossens' book?

[Dave Eggleston]

After 30 years of research, I've gotten leery of image captions without a clear image to verify them. I like to keep an open mind. I've seen too many incorrectly identified photos over the years and BHS has at least one I found this weekend listed as Boulder Canyon that is far more likely Clear Creek west of Beaver Brook but the absence of a train might not alert someone who's not looked at CC photos. And there's at least one that Sturtevant himself wrote "C&N" on the image but it shows a GSL&P train near Goat Rock. Unless the C&N ran old GSL&P cars at the start, which would be another revelation if true. The BHS caption doesn't catch this. It happens.

I've been downloading and looking at so many photos over the past week that I missed the Congdon stack on 155 though I'd listed the cars in the train in my notes. I simply noted it and moved to the next image, planning to look more closely once I've got all these images identified. Doh. A classic early GSL&P train: 01542 and what is most likely boxcar 1620 with one of the 13-window coaches (182 or 183). So 155 was on the line multiple times. I guess that shouldn't be a surprise. This also means that photos such as the one heading west at Orodell could be of CC 155, not CC 10: https://boulderlibrary.org/cwjpgs/218-2-24photo_1.jpg

A really nice twist. Great catch Robert!

Most GSL&P photos, such as this one being discussed, show the engine pointing west but has anyone going through the BHS photos noted that at least two photos show it pointing east? That was another surprise, given no turning facilities on the line. Head first to Sunset, backend first to Boulder seemed the norm. Apparently not!

[Dave Eggleston]

Speas has no picture. The chapter is called "The 10 Spot."

I've been scanning Crossen over and over and can't find one picture. But then I read the chapter on the line's construction and have found the source of his pointing out the engine: the Boulder News & Courier ran an article that mentions No. 6 on the first run, on page 25 of the book.

Of course, CC 6 may be the engine in the handful of images that the engine number can't be seen... Guess I have to read those first two chapters again to find out why he also calls out the line running CC 108.

[Todd Hackett]

Robert McFarland wrote

Todd,do you know of a photo of CC6 on the GSL&P? I thought there was one Speas or Crossens' book?

I don't have a list of what's in the books. That photo was from my collection, and I don't see any there of any Porter Bell locos on the GSL&P.

degg13 wrote

... And there's at least one that Sturtevant himself wrote "C&N" on the image but it shows a GSL&P train near Goat Rock....

I haven't looked up that photo to see but the C&N did run UP cars early on while their B&S cars were being delivered, as shown in this view above Sunset (just below ox bow curve) with a few new B&S C&N cars in a train with old UP cars (there were no true GSL&P cars).

[Dave Eggleston]

I knew the C&N had run some of the UP cars but I hadn't seen photos other than those that were de-trucked as sheds. That is a fantastic picture.

The cars weren't GSL&P, but did 026552 or 01542 ever leave the line? Were they converted for the line? Did they arrive as boxcars and were converted on site? Did they end up detrucked as sheds after 1894? Mysteries...

One of the pictures by Sturtevant is BHS 218-2-16 photo 2 is labeled Colorado & Northwestern but is Engine 160 with 026552 and a CC 11-window coach at Maxwell Pitch, about 2 miles west of Boulder station. The flume above it, the Silver Lake ditch, is under construction, something that happened in GSL&P days, years before the flood and years before the C&N arrived on the scene. I don't think this was C&N but I'd love to hear if that's wrong.



The Salina station in GSL&P days was a boxcar with a 4-pane window in the end. This car shows in C&N photos in exactly the same spot but with the C&N running on the opposite bank. Sadly no details beyond that window are discernable in the few photos I've access to.

[Todd Hackett]

degg13 wrote

...I don't think this was C&N but I'd love to hear if that's wrong...

I agree. I haven't seen any UP locos on the C&N (just C&S, and even those were after the third rail was added), and that one looks too early anyway. The "MRP" would have been added to the negative by Martin Parsons after Sturtevant's death, but the rest of the writing does look to be Sturtevant's. I would have thought he would write the descriptions on the negatives shortly after taking the photo, but this one must have been added many years later.

[Robert McFarland]

Didn't the C&N use a Brooks engine during construction?

[lakeray]

Help me. I'm old and not very computer literate. I can call up the individual photos with the direct link but how do I get to the part of the Boulder library to search for the photos?

TUVM,
Ray

[Chris Walker]

Ray,

This may be what you seek.

 https://localhistory.boulderlibrary.org/