C&S Watertank Metal Roofing Detail.

[Chris Walker]

Idaho Springs Uptown Tank Revisited.

In response to this discussion in an un-related topic.  http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/The-Best-Preserved-Stretches-of-C-S-ROW-tp5367p5392.html

Mal Ferrell has graciously sent these pictures which illustrate the metal roof detail better.  Thank You.

[Keith Hayes]

The first image looks like wood battens to me. The conical shape of the roof would require a tapered metal roof pan, a custom piece, even if the tin guy could use one pattern repetitively. It seems odd to me. But, the last two images do look more like metal.

[Jeff Young]

Yep, I had the same impression as Keith.

[Keith Hayes]

Cheers, Jeff!

I'm stumped!

[Chris Walker]

Well C&S'ers
 I've tried several times to upload Mal's scans but keep hitting a wall, everytime this happens.



However I have got one to attach even though they were treated the same.  The trick is to save the scan, open in Paint, resize, then copy, clear image and apply to a new Paint window....phew!

Richard B Jackson Photos courtesy of Mallory Hope Ferrell Collection
C&S #10 1927   note: the Moscript&Hassell lumber siding at this time has not yet been connected at the East end.  

C&S#69 7/1940

C&S#70 1937

[Keith Hayes]

Chris, are all these photos of the Idaho Springs tank, or are some Elk Creek, or others?

The images of the Idaho Springs tank sure appear to have pieces of ogee trim used as battens.

I wonder if one tank had a metal roof with wood battens, and another (or others) had all metal roofs?

[Jim Courtney]

Great photos, Chris!  Thanks for sharing -- you too, Mal!

[Chris Walker]

Sorry Keith,

I was so frustrated about getting Mal's large scans copied and having repeated failures that I forgot to add that these are all of the Idaho Springs uptown tank but I did say that in the original post with just the detail enlargements.   Elk Creek tank by the way, had very wide battens so no doubts about that.

I'm waiting for a few others to join in on what they are seeing or with some documentation but I'm not entirely convinced that there isn't a composite construction there.  I had posed that, here in the original discussion http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/The-Best-Preserved-Stretches-of-C-S-ROW-tp5367p5390.html

The close-ups provided show there is more to this than first thought, eh!  Given the length of timeline of the I.S. pictures there appears to be little deteriation as to what should be expected with wooden rooves.  The Georgetown tank is an example when comparison is made in the warpage over various era photographs.

Looking at different pictures of the Golden tank reveals certain angles that give the appearance of lifting battens but so far nothing conclusive.

[Jim Courtney]

I dunno, Chris.

The photo I posted of the Smith Hill tank obviously has a metal roof with ridges, that overlap every 3rd ridge to form a seam.

But I've looked and looked at the photos you've posted of the I.S. tank. Each of the raised elements seem identical, solid and appear to have a near half-round cross section.  There is no difference in any ridge to suggest an overlapping seam.  So, I'd have to guess that they are battens, but they seem small and inadequate for that function.

The C&S standard drawings (c1910) show only flat roofs for the small and large capacity tanks. No mention is made of roofing materials.

So, I guess I'm stumped.

And Keith, what is "ogee" trim?

Jim

[Robert McFarland]

Check it out in Wikipedia- they have explanation and pictures of ogee molding.

[Keith Hayes]

Oh, yeah, thanks Robert.

Ogee must be a Greek term or something like that. It is two opposing quarter circles that meet at a tangent point.

The illustrations show what I think of as a picture frame moulding, but it is generically all the same. One of the water tank images makes the trim look more like a piece of casing you would place over the gap in paired windows or doors--a 1/2" x 1 1/2" piece that has an ogee routed into each side. I want to say this is a common trim piece on a passenger car, but my mind is drawing a blank regarding where it would be encountered (windows?).

What I don't get about the metal panel theory is that the pans need to be trapezoids in shape, and the bends (or brakes) would make a good study for an advanced drafting class. While the craftsfolk of yesteryear were very talented (Case in point, William Mason, nuff said), these roof pans strike me as being just enough too complicated for the tin knockers on the B&B crew.

[Jim Courtney]

What if the underlay isn't tin/metal.  It would be much easier to cut long thin triangles of roll roofing material, then cover the seams with "ogee" battens. Each triangle of roofing could be 2 or 3 "panels" wide, with the "battens" covering the not just the seams, but holding down the material between the seams, in a radial fashion from the roof peak.

I see what you mean about the "ogee" shape (kind'a like chair railing in formal rooms) to the raised elements, especially in the first of Chris's photos.

The C&S Common standards drawing show "Elaterite" roofing material in use as early as 1910.

[Chris Walker]

Keith I have to weigh in here with I never mentioned seams, just Metal roof.  I wasn't meaning a folded seam either, I think that was an interjection by Jeff and I never clarified it.  We learned in Metalwork class very early on to make cones and circles from sheet stock, I'd see no difficulty upscaling to a Tankroof, given I wouldn't be paying for it haha.

Now that the close-up's from Mal's photo's define the "furniture quality" batten further reinforce the metal vs wood theory especially when you take into account that doily around the Finial.  

Golden Tank



http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42650/rv/singleitem/rec/105

[Ken Martin]

One tank still existing is French Gulch tank on the Climax branch and it still has a metal roof. I realize it was modified for the broad gauge so don't know if it was added then or not.

Another comment is years ago someone told me that the C&S used roofs from Butler bins. I had been inclined to not believe this but just looked up their history and they were developed in 1907 so who knows.

Ken Martin

[Bill Uffelman]

Based on my years in the midwest and other ag areas it definitely has a Butler bin look. 

Bill Uffelman 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 9:33 AM, Ken Martin [via C&Sng Discussion Forum]

<[hidden email]> wrote:

One tank still existing is French Gulch tank on the Climax branch and it still has a metal roof. I realize it was modified for the broad gauge so don't know if it was added then or not.

Another comment is years ago someone told me that the C&S used roofs from Butler bins. I had been inclined to not believe this but just looked up their history and they were developed in 1907 so who knows.

Ken Martin

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NAML

[Chris Walker]

Now if someone who didn't know what they were looking at given they didn't understand things back then as we do today, a Butlerbin has close similarities to the C&S Watertank metal roof in as much as it is a paneled segmented cone and that may have been what they meant, if not so much exactly as built by Butler.  Along those lines, is it reasonable to suggest that these roof sections were outsourced(or prefabricated in the Tinshops) by the C&S/CB&Q.  Did the C&S do same with the Murphy Roof panels for the freightcars?

Obviously by looking at Ken's picture that particular example is indeed a Butlerbin roof (was this the roof the person was specifically thinking of Ken?) but isn't the same as the C&S metal roofs under discussion, both Three Mile and French Gulch tanks were C&S Standard wooden Flat-roofed in Narrow Gauge days right up to 4 railed trackage.

[Chris Walker]

Different yet again...


http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42535/rv/singleitem/rec/16