Buena Vista had No Wye – Know Why?!?

[Jim Courtney]

This sub-topic gets more and more interesting.

I used the term "unit trains of coal" because Sloan used it in his book.

So from Pat and Jimmy's posts, I gather that any narrow gauge cars arriving at Salida, destined for Buena Vista, Leadville and any C&S stations east of Leadville, were switched together. One of the D&RG 3-way coupler gons was added to the north end of the cut, and all northbound narrow gauge cars were tacked on to the rear of a D&RG northbound standard gauge freight, behind the caboose.

The Buena Vista / Romley consigned cars would be dropped off first, the remaining Leadville / C&S eastbound cars would be delivered at Leadville. Is this correct? The narrow gauge "block", as Pat put it, wouldn't be commingled in the train, with standard gauge cars on either end, right?

How much Crested Butte coal or Gunnison ore was hauled this way to Leadville, consigned to customers of the D&RG (ie the smelters or other industries) not served by the C&S?

Jimmy, does this mean the 3-way coupler gon had to be wyed at Leadville to accommodate southbound empties?

I'm beginning to get a picture of how D&RG cars show up in early 1920s photos at Keystone, Dillon, Kokomo, Climax, etc.

Thanks to both of you for sharing this info!

[Keith Hayes]

Jim, I need to check Sloan and see his notes on the two modified gons. This would be something interesting to model!

Because the third rail was on the one side, the 3-way coupler cars would not be wyed, unless they had a symmetrical 3-way coupler pocket. That is part of the switching challange.

[Jim Courtney]

No info in Sloan as to photo or drawings of the modified D&RG gons.

A couple of photos at the top of this thread, posted by John and Chris, show 3 to 4 car cuts of C&S and D&RG narrow gauge cars, on the connecting track with the D&RG, at Buena Vista.

Jim

[South Park]

  I have always wondered why the RR did not trestle the dip behind
the hotel with a wye leg heading for Boreas.  A few train loads of
mine waste to bury in the trestle and the whole operation would run
a fair amount smoother.  It is a pretty good distance to back the train
from the old King wye, where a wye at the hotel would be right there.

[Jimmy Blouch]

I am of the opinion that these 2 gons were not used between Buena Vista and Salida.

They would have been set out/picked up at Buena Vista for/from the C&S.  That would have been for the purpose of interchange with the C&S for their traffic between Buena Vista and Leadville..

Jimmy

[Chris Walker]

Jimmy,
I was under the impression that it has already been stated somewhere that the D&RG preferred not to mix gauges, keeping NG consists separate behind NG power on the Cleora-Eilers line, SG consists likewise behind SG power.  Someone will correct me if I'm mistaken please, I don't have the time to go research that again.   Your info about the C&S carloads being handled on the D&RG behind the Caboose is great stuff.

Jim,
Cleora-Publeo 3rd-rail was removed in 1911.

Keith,
you have me perplexed,  of course the 3-way coupler pockets are symetrical, the NG knuckle coupler is moved to the side needed to match, there is only one knuckle taken from the unused coupler: no worries about doing this in L'n'P days.

There was a C&S photo equivalent of this, the Title photo in Roper's Snapshot Saturday No.16
http://coloradosouthern.blogspot.co.nz/2014/09/ropers-snapshot-saturday-no16.html#comment-form

OP-8950

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/47248/rv/singleitem/rec/1

OP-8948

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/47084/rv/singleitem/rec/7

Also the C&S Leadville Wye was narrow gauge not 3-railed, I'm not certain as to why you think they could not be turned on the Wye.
 

Salida Centennial Photo Archive

Salida Centennial Photo Archive

[ComoDepot]

I do not know how much it would take to fill Park Gulch enough to take a wye, I would have thought if you were measuring the fill in train loads it would be in the hundreds.

[South Park]

  Perhaps, but the mines produced no shortage of available free fill.

[ComoDepot]

When I show people around the Roundhouse I often point out the scope of the extensions and that a lot of fill was put over the side of the Gulch so that that the Roundhouse could be extended. Do not know where it came from but does not look like mine spoil.

Now quite why they did this, why they did not locate the Roundhouse is a more obvious spot is another question.

[Robert McFarland]

Check out CRA#12  p92  for early C&S 3-way coupler pockets used at Leadville.

[jim pallow]

    Jimmy, didn't the Grande have a 3 way pocket High Side gon at Santa Fe?  I could have sworn I saw a photo of one. JP

[Chris Walker]

from the John W. Barriger III Railroad Library on Flikr https://flic.kr/s/aHsjRvFqhL


Just for you JP.

[Jimmy Blouch]

jim pallow wrote

Jimmy, didn't the Grande have a 3 way pocket High Side gon at Santa Fe?  I could have sworn I saw a photo of one. JP

At the present I do not have information at hand what car was used as an idler at Santa Fe.
However, there were occasions when the Chili crew did some SG switching.

Jimmy

[Southpark]

There is a photo in "Goin Railroading", page 141 of car loads of coal at the Mary Murphy.  Anyone have a print that can be enlarged to see whose cars are there?
Tom Klinger

[Randy Rieck]

Hi Tom,

I hope the picture you requested is attached.  Our computer skills are not the best.

The picture showing the coal track at the Mary Murphy Mill was obtained from Margaret Coel who is the granddaughter of
Sam Speas.  Mrs. Coel credited this picture to Sam Speas in 1918.  I believe it was made from the original negative.  Notice
the drop of developing fluid on the print.  The 2 cars on the right appear to be  4 board D&RG coal cars.  The 2 cars on the
left appear to be C&S.  The  box car appears to be D&RG.  What do you suppose the wood framing is along side the coal cars?
Is that a monorail behind the coal cars?

Randy

[Jim Courtney]

Here is an enlargement, with contrast and brightness adjusted:





I agree about the two D&RG not-yet-highside gons on the right. Not sure about the 6 stake coal car in the middle, as I haven't seen C&S lettering in that arrangement--it looks more typical of D&RG gondola lettering placement.

Perhaps these are cars of Crested Butte coal, hauled over Marshall Pass as Pat described.

Is this the mill at Romley or the Golf mill downgrade?

[Keith Hayes]

Chris, I did not figure the crews would move a coupler between pockets: you could really bust a gut (or worse) doing that!

Regarding turning the cars, I just thought that the third rail is on the one side, so once the train pulls into town, you cut off the hack and the rear idler, move the train of narrow gauge cars to their spur, connect the second idler car to the first, and wait for the next cut of narrow gauge cars to move back to Salida. But...I confess I am not familiar with the D&RG track configuration at Leadville to know if there is a need to wye the train.

It goes without saying on these pages that a crew will be challenged wyeing a train of mixed gauge cars. One leg has a 'swish' were the third rail moves from one side to the other. A cut of cars with locomotive of the same gauge will have no issue: I leave it to your imagination what happens when a SG loco moves the NG cut through the swish.

Oh...and the third rail ended just beyond the D&RGW Ibex crossing, which is just beyond the north end of the wye towards Climax. I have no idea why the C&S bothered extending the third rail that far along the main. They must have had plans. But...I am not sure that the first photo of the wye, which appears to look north is the C&S Leadville wye--the ground really drops off to the west as the wye is about 6'-0" to 10'-0" above the roundhouse, and the tail is even higher above the adjacent landscape.

[Chris Walker]

Jim,

More likely the coal is from Castleton and the Kubler Mine which seemed to ship in D&RG(W) Hi-side gondolas and C&S coal cars.  Photos of Baldwin show they used drop-bottom gons.  The Crested Butte coal I got the impression was all C&FI to Pueblo.  

I still can't figure why Keith wants to turn this stuff on a Wye though???  That Leadville C&S wye doesn't look very long on the tail-track.  The D&RG(W) had a 3rd-rail Draw around Eilers to change sides to match the C&S.  The C&S 3-rail terminated at the Ibex branch crossing,  (edit) http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Work-on-the-High-Line-commences-tp2201p5848.html  for the picture) at one time it extended out to the Leadville Mineral Belt line since that was 3-rail as well.  Jerry Day would be the one to relate all this stuff better than I can.

[Pat Student]

As for Crested Butte coal, I thought it went to Minnequa also until I read "CF&I Call Mine & Coke Ovens". In the description of the Crested Butte mine describes "44% of the production going to the Crested Butte coke ovens until 1918 and the balance being used for the D&RG RR, other mining companies, Smelters and for domestic market.  None of the coke production was used at the Pueblo plant.".

In the Marshall Pass hill jobs data, coal was going to points all over Kansas and Nebraska With the furtherest points of St. Paul MN, Tucson AZ and Chihuahua, MX.  Only 1 car was found to go to Minnequa.

[Jimmy Blouch]

Jim Courtney wrote

This sub-topic gets more and more interesting.

I used the term "unit trains of coal" because Sloan used it in his book.

So from Pat and Jimmy's posts, I gather that any narrow gauge cars arriving at Salida, destined for Buena Vista, Leadville and any C&S stations east of Leadville, were switched together. One of the D&RG 3-way coupler gons was added to the north end of the cut, and all northbound narrow gauge cars were tacked on to the rear of a D&RG northbound standard gauge freight, behind the caboose.

The Buena Vista / Romley consigned cars would be dropped off first, the remaining Leadville / C&S eastbound cars would be delivered at Leadville. Is this correct? The narrow gauge "block", as Pat put it, wouldn't be commingled in the train, with standard gauge cars on either end, right?

How much Crested Butte coal or Gunnison ore was hauled this way to Leadville, consigned to customers of the D&RG (ie the smelters or other industries) not served by the C&S?

Jimmy, does this mean the 3-way coupler gon had to be wyed at Leadville to accommodate southbound empties?

I'm beginning to get a picture of how D&RG cars show up in early 1920s photos at Keystone, Dillon, Kokomo, Climax, etc.

Thanks to both of you for sharing this info!

Two D&RG NG gons were fitted with 3-way coupler, one end each car.
They were used as idlers to move C&S traffic between Buena Vista and Leadville.  This traffic was moved behind the caboose on SG trains. Only one idler was used on each train.
Operation would consist of:
West bound SG out of Salida would stop at Buena Vista to pick up C&S traffic and idler.  That C&S traffic, with idler, would be set out at Malta and SG train continue to Minturn.
A Leadville switcher would move that consist between Malta and Leadville.  Return traffic would also be handled by a Leadville switcher.
East bound SG out of Minturn would stop at Malta to pick up C&S traffic and idler, then set out C&S traffic with idler at Buena Vista, and continue on to Salida.
The idlers would stay with the C&S consist and not be moved beyond Buena Visa.
During this operation the D&RG idler would be the only car needing to be wyed at Leadville.
The published passage regarding the use of these idlers to move coal from Crested Butte to Leadville should be disregarded, in my opinion.

Jimmy